March 6, 2012, 01:31 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,235
|
Well, he is black has some red tips. Looking at his teeth and hoofs he has spent most of his life, if not all, in a soft soil area. Out further west their hoofs are worn more and most of the cutters broken from the rocky soil. Most of my pigs don't even have the crust.
That looks like many of the pigs I encounter, but I'm no expert on the domestic origins like Hogdogs is. I call em black, red, brown, polky dotted, black with big white stripe and so on LOL.... The all red ones seem to me to be closest to what folks call Russian. The piglets of the all red ones are mean little bootyholes, to a point of being comical. That completes my knowledge of pig lineage. LOL . There are far better experts on pig lineage than me on this forum.
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!! |
March 6, 2012, 02:05 PM | #27 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,133
|
Quote:
U said this..so I asked this.../\/\/\
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload......... |
|
March 6, 2012, 03:26 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 8, 2010
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 1,679
|
Time for some high speed LEAD POISON.
Thats what we call a piney wood rooter S.GA . Last edited by BIG P; March 6, 2012 at 08:40 PM. |
March 6, 2012, 03:29 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,235
|
I'm making assumptions based on my own observance of wild pigs, I read that there is no real difference between European pigs and domestic. The traits were all bred into them.
I see them in all stages, it is my understanding that the appearance depends on how many generations they have been wild. I think hogdogs is more correct. You could have a near Russian population, then here comes a polky dotted sow and screws the whole mess up.
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!! |
March 6, 2012, 04:24 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,133
|
LOL..I think U and hogdogs are probably bout right....I am trying to learn more about these hogs....I think our riverbottom hogs have been more remote and seem to carry more euro-traits...while on the other end of the county..there seems to be anything and everything....
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload......... |
March 7, 2012, 08:58 AM | #31 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
When you look at Eurasian hogs in their own region, you will see what I call a "more tannish hue" overall. Or you will see a "Bluish" hue overall.
Tipped hairs can be a sign of out crossing but to what??? A red Duroc bred to a black female? A couple generations later of mostly black genes and the black can take back over. With Eurasian crosses you have to remember that even if the parent was a pure russian, these piglets will be watering down the russian genes if not limited to future breeding with pure russian bloodlines. So with the very limited population of pure russian DNA donors... and the nearly unlimited number of pigs with anything less than 50% russian genes... You won't get a hog that could pass scientific scrutiny as a "pure eurasian" in our lifetimes if ever. There are some "indicators" of possible russian bloodlines bred into the feral stock. One is a sneaky little "hybrid tooth"... http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm Scroll down to the "how old is that pig" to see the tooth. I have doped up, sewn up, and buried up dogs wrecked by pigs of many colors and sizes... Tooth size be danged, the dog wrecker I worry about is what I call a "teenagger thug punk" sort... Any color but these spanish pigs live up to this real well, about 140-170 pounds not terribly old (hence the teenager), 3/4-1 1/2" teeth... These gems are athletic and know it... they are badazz and they know it and they will turn and fight a dog at the drop of a hat... Their agility and tenacity and downright winning intentions make them badder to me than a 400 pound old warrior hog... He can whoop 'em too but usually he wants to slash the swords and run if possible. Breed matters naught to me... In fact, if you could keep the eurasian out of the mix, your butchering duty could be easier and tablefare better... We bred these domestic lines for various reason and tuff meat under a thick hide ain't them... Brent |
March 7, 2012, 10:36 AM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 6, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,350
|
All this talk about pig hunting makes me....
JEALOUS! There are not any pigs around here, and as far as I know, they are not much of a problem in any neighboring states. I know it is somewhat self centered, knowing how damaging the hog can be, but I sure wish I had the opportunity to hunt some hog!
__________________
Go Pokes! Go Rams! |
March 7, 2012, 11:21 AM | #33 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,133
|
hogdogs...the hogs that come off my riverbottom place have that hybrid tooth....I will try to post a pic....I even took a pig with that tooth of the place where the black hog pic came from....He had a different look about him and I bleached his skull.....What I understand the boars in europe and asia have some difference in color..appearance..depends on what region....Just as or deer are smaller..the closer U get to the tropics and larger to the north....same with asian boar....
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload......... |
March 7, 2012, 11:35 AM | #34 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
Most of ours have the hybrid tooth too. But for the most part ours are either heavy black old spanish blood or any ratio of other european/american domestic lines.
I requested permission to use a fellow hog dogger's pics from louisiana where he seems to have several "pockets" of hogs with HEAVY eurasian traits... When he agrees, I will post to show what I feel is the difference in just a feral domestic and a eurasian predominately... Brent |
March 7, 2012, 12:37 PM | #35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 3, 2011
Location: Bellevue, NE
Posts: 981
|
Would love to join in the fun
I don't wish we had hog problems like that up here in NE, but I do wish I had the opportunity to hunt them like you guys do down there... Kind of a double edged sword, I guess. Frankly, I wouldn't care whether they were domestic, eurasian, spanish, or any other stock, just as long as they fit in my smoker
__________________
Some people are like Slinkies - not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs. |
March 7, 2012, 01:15 PM | #36 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
These are what I feel exhibit euro traits...
Brent |
March 7, 2012, 01:16 PM | #37 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
one more...
brent |
March 7, 2012, 01:22 PM | #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,235
|
I've had some like those except I haven't seen any with such pronounced hackles or whatever they are called on pigs.
I suspect that Florida has some of the oldest lines in the pigs there.
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!! |
March 7, 2012, 01:24 PM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,235
|
I didn't ask where they were taken I assume Fla or the deep south.
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!! |
March 7, 2012, 01:27 PM | #40 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
Those are all Louisiana hogs... The majority of russian influenced populations are directly related to the "Gentlemen's" hunt clubs of the late 1800's and early 1900's when tycoons were all the rage...
Our Fla population began the day a spanish explorer first unloaded his boat on our beaches... Florida would have more russian influenced hogs if AC were already common when the tycoons were playin'... Brent |
March 7, 2012, 01:40 PM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,235
|
Was that last one a fair bit taller on the hoof than your average feral pig?
I remember seeing some like that a Long time ago in Germany. I was taken aback over how tall they were.
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!! |
March 7, 2012, 05:46 PM | #42 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
|
Hybrid tooth - Bogosity
Quote:
You brought it up in that thread and I provided you with considerable information on why the presence or absence of the tooth may occur in pigs and it isn't because of being "Russian." It is because the tooth is vestigial, being lost over time genetically. I seem to recall challenging you to prove that the tooth was an indicator of bloodline and nothing came from that. If you can prove it, it would be a real feather in your cap given it is a trait that nobody in the wildlife, biology, or veternary sciences is aware of and there are a considerable number of publications on domestic, wild and feral hogs. By the way, have you noticed that the only references to the hybrid tooth all refer back to the same singluar source? What hog expert studied these hogs and made this unique determination? Do you know? Some online sources refer to your link, but your link and others go refence Texasboars.com and that article is found here ... http://www.texasboars.com/articles/aging.html You get the same pictures and same text referencing the hybrid tooth as being diagnostic and neither source provides any justification as to how the author learned of this purported trait. It is simply stated as if it is fact from an unnamed source. The claim is... Quote:
Here are domestic hog skulls with the tooth. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...QEwBA&dur=4446 http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&s...1t:429,r:6,s:0 http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&s...1t:429,r:0,s:0 http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&s...t:429,r:3,s:15 http://www.etsy.com/listing/81789603...rofa-domestica http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks...c/pigpage.html So how is it that all these domestic hogs have this tooth? The article says they won't have them. Well the article is WRONG. Texasboars is WRONG. Now above I referred to the condition of the so-called "hybrid tooth" as being vestigial. Vestigial means it is an anatomical structure that no longer retains its original form or function and often is being lost evolutionarily over time. However, the actual absence of this tooth (or other dental structure) is called oligodontia. Here is a neat little abstract for an article discussing this very issue. You can order the whole article, but the abstract already tells us that the notion of the "hybrid tooth" as diagnostic is bogus. http://www.springerlink.com/content/p335h22227u2023m/ Quote:
I am afraid, sir, that you have succombed to a 'fact' that is nothing more than an internet myth that appears to have its origins on the Texasboars website for which there is no justification. The notion that this tooth reflects anything at all about bloodline or domesticity, being feral, being wild, or some hybrid thereof is without any merit and should not be used as an indicator of being of Russian, wild Eurasian, or hybrid feral-Russian/wild Eurasian ancestry. Its presence only means that the hog isn't suffering from oligodontia of that tooth.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|||
March 7, 2012, 05:59 PM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,235
|
DNS,
What's your take on Keg's pictures and questions?
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!! |
March 7, 2012, 06:09 PM | #44 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
I didn't claim it refers to anything other than being called the "hybrid tooth" and "possible indicator..." No it really don't look I purported it to be anything more than I refer in this thread...
Brent |
March 7, 2012, 08:07 PM | #45 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,133
|
the pics..
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload......... |
March 7, 2012, 08:11 PM | #46 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,133
|
hogdogs..I see hogs with a mane time to time..dark legs too..with a reddish body....
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload......... |
March 8, 2012, 04:18 AM | #47 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
|
Quote:
Okay, but it isn't even that. Quote:
The questions... Quote:
What a lot of folks do not understand is that the vast majority of hogs brought into the US have "Russian" ancestry. That is because the domestic pigs of Europe and Asia are domesticated from the Russian/Eurasian wild boars. This article goes into a log of detail on the difficulties in properly identifying a hog based or morphological and behavioral characteristics. Many of the traits commonly known about Russian/Eurasian, feral, and hybrid distinctions has turned out to be flat our wrong in some cases and often variable in others. It is a neat article, but I have to question where it was that they obtained their pure feral hog population...as if somebody high fenced a few thousand acres and stocked it with domestic hogs and came back 20 years later to find all the original domestic hogs were long dead, but their several generations of offspring turned into pure feral hogs. I don't see that happening or how the researchers would have known if their pure ferals had been contaminated with more domestic or with Russian/Eurasion lines. http://agrilife.org/texnatwildlife/f...ced-wild-boar/ While the above article indicates skull measurements to be pretty good for diagnostic/identification purposes, this article says the method has problems. Note that the most recent citation in the above article dates back to 1992. http://www.secem.es/GALEMYS/PDF%20de...ov%209-23_.pdf Okay, to confound things even further about Keg's hog, hogdogs noted that it looked like a Spanish Black and has noted hogs in his area have Spanish Black blood. What is interesting to note it that Spanish Black (Iberian Black) hogs are thought to be a hybrid of the introduced Mediterranean breed that bred with Eurasian wild boars, but only Keg thought it looked like it has Russian traits. http://bigpictureagriculture.blogspo...ig-breeds.html So given its history, Keg's possible Spanish Black or Iberian Black hog would be domesticated and Eurasian wild boar hybrid feral hog. How is that for covering all the bases? Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
||||
March 8, 2012, 08:54 AM | #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,235
|
Why are these pigs more prevalent in the south, when the northern US more closely mimics their natural environment? They have an obvious aversion to heat.
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!! |
March 8, 2012, 09:01 AM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,235
|
As a joke when I kill a pig, when accompanied by others, I proclaim it to be a Russian, even if its a fuzzy pokie dotted one. They get all excited and jazzed up, then they get the "just kidding"....and that crushes their soul...LOL
__________________
Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!! |
March 8, 2012, 09:17 AM | #50 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
I am not one who sees a trait on any ol' feral hog and sees a "russian"...
I have seen far too many 400+ pound black hogs that are just BIG HUGE BLACK HOGS... No mane... No shoulders that narrow above the axis point to to be a "blade-esque" shape rising above the top of the level hog head... Slightly tipped hairs say "feral domestic cross"... but half the length of hair being a different color is very much common in eurasian swine. As for size... hogs will grow... We have pockets of feral domestics that easily hold many large 250-350 pound brood animals... Other pockets seem to top out around 200-250 with a 300 being an anomaly... Fighters??? Some of the more "docile" catches I have had dogs in were the ones seeming more russian than others... and I am still waiting for a pig with more fight than those young 150# black pigs I mention... Brent |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|