August 19, 2011, 11:40 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 22, 2006
Location: Mud Creek, Texas
Posts: 269
|
Any 50 year old gun?
I should know the answer to this question but I am in doubt.
Does any gun that is 50 years old qualify as C&R? Say I want to buy a Model 70 that was made in '58, does that qualify or does the design have to be declared C&R?
__________________
When in doubt ..... mumble! |
August 19, 2011, 12:06 PM | #2 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
The 50 year old rule applies to the date of manufacture of the individual gun, not to the design date or the introduction date. Yes, a Model 70 made in 1958 is a C&R.
Jim |
August 19, 2011, 12:45 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 22, 2006
Location: Mud Creek, Texas
Posts: 269
|
That is what I thought. It has been a while since I have been through my paperwork.
Thanks!
__________________
When in doubt ..... mumble! |
August 19, 2011, 01:20 PM | #4 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stuart, VA
Posts: 2,473
|
Quote:
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither. |
|
August 19, 2011, 02:21 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 22, 2006
Location: Mud Creek, Texas
Posts: 269
|
I did know that. Unfortunate as it is. Thanks for making that clarification to the thread.
__________________
When in doubt ..... mumble! |
August 19, 2011, 08:34 PM | #6 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
Hi, noelf2,
Not correct, at least as far as machineguns go. A 50 year old SMG (say a WWII STEN) is a C&R, and can be transferred like a C&R once transfer approval is obtained. In other words, if I have a STEN and want to sell it to a C&R licensee in another state, once the Form 4 is approved, I can ship it or take it directly to him, as a C&R. I do not have to transfer it through a Class 3 dealer at either end. Jim |
August 20, 2011, 08:23 AM | #7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
|
Quote:
If what you say is correct (no offense, I'm a cautious doubter. allergic to steel bars.) many very "modern" type guns will soon be so designated. The Ted Williams shotgun I bought at Sears in 1955 would be a relic. My Ruger Single Six bought about 1970 will soon be, and etc. |
|
August 20, 2011, 11:01 AM | #8 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,172
|
Quote:
So... That means, as of today, August 20, 2011, you can use your C&R license to purchase any gun made prior to August 20, 1961. Last edited by gyvel; August 20, 2011 at 11:22 AM. |
|
August 20, 2011, 11:05 AM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
|
gyvel, thanks.
It has been decades since I actually read 'the book'. |
August 20, 2011, 11:40 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 22, 2006
Location: Mud Creek, Texas
Posts: 269
|
Thank you all for the responses.
__________________
When in doubt ..... mumble! |
August 20, 2011, 11:45 AM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,575
|
I guess I'm a Curio and Relic as I've been shooting for more than 50 years !
__________________
And Watson , bring your revolver ! |
August 20, 2011, 01:07 PM | #12 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 24, 2011
Location: dixie
Posts: 477
|
It's a little more complicated than that. Many Chinese SKSs (the ones originally manufactured for military use) can be dated through their serial numbers, but the BATF refuses to acknowledge that so they classify all Chinese SKSs as non C&Rs regardless of their date of manufacture.
Also, many commemorative guns and guns with historical value are added to the list every year. I suspect that it is often political cronyism so that someone that supported a politician can own a gun in an area that restricts non C&Rs much more heavily. |
August 20, 2011, 02:17 PM | #13 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
Originally, under the 1968 law, a gun was a C&R ONLY if a specific model or a specific gun, by serial number, was designated as one by ATTD (as it was then). And a gun was designated as a C&R ONLY if an application was made and approved to so designate it/them. That is where the old lists came in, with some categories (Blech pistols from Lower Slobovian contract...) and some specific serial numbers.
The 50 year rule was part of the newer law but the old lists were not changed. In any case, auto weapons could be designated as C&R but still require transfer approval and tax (Form 4). That applies only to guns - something like a carbine M2 kit, by itself, is not a C&R and a C&R license holder would be the same as anyone else in buying it. I know of no blanket ban on the SKS being a C&R or any exception to the 50 year rule. But if BATFE cannot verify the date of manufacture, the 50 year rule becomes moot. Also, China has been made (by George H.W. Bush's executive order) a special case for arms import; neither handguns nor "assault rifles" can be imported from China, even though similar ones can be imported from other countries. Jim |
August 20, 2011, 09:47 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2010
Posts: 149
|
You are all wrong and you are all right. The ATFE has a list of "approved curio and relics" You can find it here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-11.pdf .
As a general rule a gun that is 50 years old (by manufacture date) is elligible. Just remember that the burden of proof is on YOU the purchaser and the seller. If ther are no records of manufacture dates Vs. serial number or no serial number, you are out of luck. Now if there is an obvious reason that the gun must be more than fifty years old, i.e. the company went out of business (i.e. Eastern Arms Co.) or discontinued manufacture of that model more than 50 years ago (i.e Wichester model 1897) you are good to go. Short barreled guns and machine guns still fall under the old rules. |
August 28, 2011, 04:19 AM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
|
The last thing to worry about with a pre-64 Model 70 is the daft C&R. It's condition, what it's chamber in and the price is far more important. There's a 1945 made .30 Carbine on Gunsamerica that's valued at $14,500. A .270 at $1199 and a 1939 vintage .30-06 at $725. None of which need to be put in any silly book.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count! |
August 28, 2011, 05:22 AM | #16 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 18, 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,053
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
August 28, 2011, 01:50 PM | #17 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
Hi, T. O'Heir,
You wrote: "None of which need to be put in any silly book." Well they have to be put in some book. If the buyer has a C&R license, they have to be entered in his book. If he doesn't, they have to be shipped to a dealer and entered in his book. Maybe some folks don't bother with a "silly book", but the alternative could be unpleasant if BATFE cares enough to check. Hi, JiminTexas, I am not sure what you mean by "the old rules". NFA firearms (but not suppressors, kits, and other "non-guns") certainly do come under the 50-year rule and something like a WWII Thompson SMG is a C&R. They still need to be transferred with the paperwork and tax payment, but they can be shipped by an individual directly to a C&R licensee, without a Class 3 dealer being involved. Jim |
August 29, 2011, 08:04 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 14, 1999
Posts: 1,573
|
Don't forget that the definition of age is different for a C&R than it is for an antique. A Finnish M-39 built in the late 60's on a 1895 Tula receiver is actually an antique because the receiver is an antique, even though it was clearly made by the Finns in the late 60's. My 1942 Turk Mauser that I re-barreled to 45acp, however, is NO LONGER C&R even though the receiver is over 50 years old. C&R firearms need to be in a configuration in which they were originally issued for them to stay C&R ...
Saands |
August 30, 2011, 12:41 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
Amazing that this thread now has 19 posts. This was a simple question, and should have had 1 maybe 2 replies, which should have answered the question. All you have to do is go to the ATF website.
Regarding definitions, if the gun is altered IE sporterized, it is not A C&R as others have said. Also antiques that are converted to fire modern ammo are not antiques although the older Remington 1858 conversion for example qualify since those modifications were done before 1898 anyways.
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|