Call for help or handle the situation?

TridentOne · September 24, 2008, 07:09 PM

I was posting in another thread and figured I would pose the question in the proper forum.

The video below shows a kidnap victim in a PDQ Mart who was carjacked from a local mall in the middle of the day. She was apporached by a customer who thought the scene looked odd, young black male and 61 yo woman buying beer. She asked the customer for help, he tried to follow, his wife called the cops, they sped away, crashed and she died.

The moment she asks for help, no one has a weapon drawn, should you draw and call for help? There are a million what ifs, but what if you are the customer asking this woman if everything is OK and she whispers "Help me" in your ear....pretty intense.

http://video.nbc4.com/player/?id=0#videoid=656623

Hosses · September 24, 2008, 08:17 PM

She asked for help standing by the BG who was either unarmed or hadn't had a weapon drawn... why would you draw on him?

If he's trying to force her to leave, I'd stand in the way and see what happens from there.

Scattergun Bob · September 24, 2008, 09:19 PM

As usual it is a tough call. I would most likely withdraw to a cover, call for the cruisers, observe and report. I can not see anything in this video that would indicate a clear threat!

Good Luck & Be Safe

hogdogs · September 24, 2008, 11:53 PM

Kidnaping is a felony in Florida. I have the right to detain a suspect in a felony crime... If the felony is considered "violent" which kidnapping is I can draw and detain with force unless the laws have changed in 3 years.
Brent

Keltyke · September 25, 2008, 06:43 AM

I can't see any reason in the video to draw or even confront. I wasn't in on the beginning and I don't know how reliable her story is. Any scenario is possible, including they're married and having an argument and she wants to get him in trouble. Yea, I know...but it IS possible.

The alleged kidnapper isn't showing any threat towards her. I may suspect, but I don't KNOW a kidnapping is in progress.

Opportunity - yes
Ability - no weapon shown
Intent - the video shows them just walking together, and his posture is not threatening

We're missing two of the three reasons that must exist to draw. In the video, there are times she's several feet away from him. Time and space enough for her to run or call for help or make a scene. With that long shirt he's wearing, it'll take him a few seconds to be able to show or use force.

I'd call the cops, observe and report. Get a good description. Follow, if possible.

As for my "right" to detain a person suspected of a felony. Well, I ain't no cop and won't pretend to be. I don't have the training or experience to "detain" someone if they don't want to be detained. Shoot them? Humph! Not without those three mandatory conditions I mentioned above.

TridentOne · September 25, 2008, 08:05 AM

They didn't show everything on the video. A customer walked up to the woman asked asked her if she was OK, she said "Help Me". Why the customer did not physically try to prevent them from leaving, who knows, but they drove off in her car at a high rate of speed, the customer tried to follow. I gather that if the customer had a gun or the clerks, someone who have done something besides let them drive off and kill her.

One of the kidnappers died too a few days later.

And they only had a BB gun, which is what they used to jack her. Maybe she thought they had a real gun and who knows what they told they would do to her, her family etc. Kidnapping is a serious crime.

Keltyke · September 25, 2008, 08:33 AM

Quote:

A customer walked up to the woman asked asked her if she was OK, she said "Help Me".

Doesn't tell the inquirer much. I wouldn't act on only those two words. As I stated, the man did not appear intimidating on the video, and he was several feet from the victim several times. Kidnappers usually keep the victim in physical contact to maintain control.

Quote:

Why the customer did not physically try to prevent them from leaving, who knows

I can give you several reasons:
1. He was out-manned - there were two kidnappers, right?
2. He was out-abilitied: If he's 60 years old, he'd be stupid to go up against two young muscular guys physically.
3. He's not sure what's going down.

Quote:

I gather that if the customer had a gun

Even if he did, the victim's words and the kidnapper's actions are NOT enough probable cause to pull a weapon and possibly shoot/kill someone. I'm sorry for what happened, but that's the bottom line. Part of most shooting laws have a section that reads something like: "...what any reasonable and prudent person would do if they were able - knowing what they did at that moment." It's easy to sit back and second-guess - knowing the facts as we do now. Knowing only what we did then, it's a whole different situation.

Relayer · September 25, 2008, 02:05 PM

Based on the facts as presented in this video (and stated by you)...

Obviously, a very observant person recognized that something was wrong, even to the point that he went so far as to pretend to know this woman, hug her and ask if everything was ok. Clearly, have felt strongly that something was amiss. If I was that observant person I would have intervened in some way.

Naturally, I would be on extremely high alert and maybe I would have tried to engage my "friend" (the lady) in some extended conversation, to see if the supposed bad guy began to get visibly agitated. Would have to see where it goes from there, but I could end up drawing on the fellow. I'm pretty sure I could not just stand back and watch them leave together.

Double Naught Spy · September 25, 2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Why the customer did not physically try to prevent them from leaving, who knows,...

Simple, there was no clear evidence of a crime being committed. She said she needed help, but her words did not match her behavior.

Not only is she sometimes feet away from her abductor, but she appears to follow him around the store. At no point does she really appear to behave like she is in true distress.

Keltyke · September 25, 2008, 02:53 PM

Point One

Quote:

Simple, there was no clear evidence of a crime being committed.

Point Two

Quote:

She said she needed help, but her words did not match her behavior.

Point Three

Quote:

At no point does she really appear to behave like she is in true distress.

+1 to DNS

jfrey123 · September 25, 2008, 03:30 PM

What about simply making noise? Little old lady asks for help, I might be inclined to shout from the roof tops and make everyone aware: "HEY Buddy!!! Your grandma here needs some help she says!!! Everything alright?!?!" That would sort of force intentions out into the open, he grabs her and starts running or threatening her/other people... That could at least bring the truth to the surface.

If I do that, worst that happens is dude looks at me and says, "She's fine, she's got dementia, leave us alone you psycho..."

singlespeed21 · September 27, 2008, 11:11 AM

+1 Jfrey123

to me that's the best thing to do in that situation, make some noise and other's aware.

I would be wary of the situation. You don't know if that lady is mentally sound...why would you immediately want to draw your gun just because an old lady said "help me" especially in this situation. I work in a pharmacy and 50% of those old people aren't completely all there, if you know what i'm saying.

watch the person, retreat a little and call the police. and keep a constant eye on them.

September 24, 2008, 07:09 PM	#1
TridentOne Member Join Date: August 17, 2008 Posts: 28	Call for help or handle the situation? I was posting in another thread and figured I would pose the question in the proper forum. The video below shows a kidnap victim in a PDQ Mart who was carjacked from a local mall in the middle of the day. She was apporached by a customer who thought the scene looked odd, young black male and 61 yo woman buying beer. She asked the customer for help, he tried to follow, his wife called the cops, they sped away, crashed and she died. The moment she asks for help, no one has a weapon drawn, should you draw and call for help? There are a million what ifs, but what if you are the customer asking this woman if everything is OK and she whispers "Help me" in your ear....pretty intense. http://video.nbc4.com/player/?id=0#videoid=656623

September 24, 2008, 09:19 PM	#3
Scattergun Bob Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington Posts: 1,186	TridentOne As usual it is a tough call. I would most likely withdraw to a cover, call for the cruisers, observe and report. I can not see anything in this video that would indicate a clear threat! Good Luck & Be Safe __________________ First, with the most, WINS! Regards, Scattergun Bob

September 25, 2008, 03:30 PM	#11
jfrey123 Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2006 Location: Reno, NV. Posts: 1,026	What about simply making noise? Little old lady asks for help, I might be inclined to shout from the roof tops and make everyone aware: "HEY Buddy!!! Your grandma here needs some help she says!!! Everything alright?!?!" That would sort of force intentions out into the open, he grabs her and starts running or threatening her/other people... That could at least bring the truth to the surface. If I do that, worst that happens is dude looks at me and says, "She's fine, she's got dementia, leave us alone you psycho..." __________________ Rock out with your Glock out!

September 24, 2008, 08:17 PM	#2
Hosses Member Join Date: December 14, 2005 Posts: 35	She asked for help standing by the BG who was either unarmed or hadn't had a weapon drawn... why would you draw on him? If he's trying to force her to leave, I'd stand in the way and see what happens from there.

September 24, 2008, 11:53 PM	#4
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Kidnaping is a felony in Florida. I have the right to detain a suspect in a felony crime... If the felony is considered "violent" which kidnapping is I can draw and detain with force unless the laws have changed in 3 years. Brent

September 25, 2008, 06:43 AM	#5
Keltyke Junior member Join Date: April 6, 2008 Location: Spartanburg, SC Posts: 2,933	I can't see any reason in the video to draw or even confront. I wasn't in on the beginning and I don't know how reliable her story is. Any scenario is possible, including they're married and having an argument and she wants to get him in trouble. Yea, I know...but it IS possible. The alleged kidnapper isn't showing any threat towards her. I may suspect, but I don't KNOW a kidnapping is in progress. Opportunity - yes Ability - no weapon shown Intent - the video shows them just walking together, and his posture is not threatening We're missing two of the three reasons that must exist to draw. In the video, there are times she's several feet away from him. Time and space enough for her to run or call for help or make a scene. With that long shirt he's wearing, it'll take him a few seconds to be able to show or use force. I'd call the cops, observe and report. Get a good description. Follow, if possible. As for my "right" to detain a person suspected of a felony. Well, I ain't no cop and won't pretend to be. I don't have the training or experience to "detain" someone if they don't want to be detained. Shoot them? Humph! Not without those three mandatory conditions I mentioned above.

September 25, 2008, 08:05 AM	#6
TridentOne Member Join Date: August 17, 2008 Posts: 28	They didn't show everything on the video. A customer walked up to the woman asked asked her if she was OK, she said "Help Me". Why the customer did not physically try to prevent them from leaving, who knows, but they drove off in her car at a high rate of speed, the customer tried to follow. I gather that if the customer had a gun or the clerks, someone who have done something besides let them drive off and kill her. One of the kidnappers died too a few days later. And they only had a BB gun, which is what they used to jack her. Maybe she thought they had a real gun and who knows what they told they would do to her, her family etc. Kidnapping is a serious crime.

September 25, 2008, 02:05 PM	#8
Relayer Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2005 Posts: 101	Based on the facts as presented in this video (and stated by you)... Obviously, a very observant person recognized that something was wrong, even to the point that he went so far as to pretend to know this woman, hug her and ask if everything was ok. Clearly, have felt strongly that something was amiss. If I was that observant person I would have intervened in some way. Naturally, I would be on extremely high alert and maybe I would have tried to engage my "friend" (the lady) in some extended conversation, to see if the supposed bad guy began to get visibly agitated. Would have to see where it goes from there, but I could end up drawing on the fellow. I'm pretty sure I could not just stand back and watch them leave together.

September 27, 2008, 11:11 AM	#12
singlespeed21 Junior Member Join Date: July 3, 2008 Posts: 1	+1 Jfrey123 to me that's the best thing to do in that situation, make some noise and other's aware. I would be wary of the situation. You don't know if that lady is mentally sound...why would you immediately want to draw your gun just because an old lady said "help me" especially in this situation. I work in a pharmacy and 50% of those old people aren't completely all there, if you know what i'm saying. watch the person, retreat a little and call the police. and keep a constant eye on them.