Makarov 9x18mm: Effective cartridge for concealed carry, yes or no?

[Hairbag]

I have the P64 as well. I have to say I was not expecting much. I swapped out the recoil spring for a heavier one and installed a lighter main spring and took her to the range. I was pretty impressed with the accuracy. The recoil was no where near as bad as some made it out to be. I know the heavy recoil spring must have helped with that. The D/A is still alittle heavy but I prefer it that way. I think of it as a walther ppk with spunk.

[raftman]

I knew I would stat a firestorm with that statement . Ask yourself if you would prefer a 9x18 to a 9mm para as your only pistol ? Ask yourself if you want to settle for less power if push came to shove ? The bottom line is the 9x18 is just not the best self defence round .

No one ever alleged that it is the best, and the OP didn't ask whether or not it was the best. Just whether or not it could get the job done, if need ever arose. 9x19 isn't the most effective round either, neither is .45acp. Can you come up with any actual evidence-based arguments that 9x18 is inadequate?

Life is short ,why rush it with bad choices .

How did you get the job of deciding what is good and what is bad?

Useing eastern europe and the soviets as an example of what is good is a joke .

Yeah... what do they know about making guns? you know... aside from designing some of the most successful firearms in the history of modern warfare and all. Sure, the former Eastern Bloc had some seriously bad consumer goods, but that's largely because their command economies made it so they didn't have to compete with foreign manufacturers. The Ladas, Trabants, etc didn't have to be better than BMW's because their consumers didn't have the option of getting a BMW. Their firearms, on the other hand, did have to compete with the rest of the world, and thus did result in effective designs. There's really no denying that the 9x18's do tend to be pretty darn reliable and accurate, for example.

Furthemore, non-Eastern Bloc militaries and police have used (and odds are still do use) "weaker" pistols than the 9x18, such the .380 or even .32acp.

I'm not saying you can't defend yourself with a 9x18 MAK ,I'm saying you can do much better .

You can also do much worse.

[Catfishman]

Furthemore, non-Eastern Bloc militaries and police have used (and odds are still do use) "weaker" pistols than the 9x18, such the .380 or even .32acp.

Is a 9x18 really "stronger" than a .380. I know it should be, but is it.

[raftman]

Is a 9x18 really "stronger" than a .380. I know it should be, but is it.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that strange and mis-punctuated question, but given that the 9x18 is generally a little faster, a little heavier, and a makes a slightly bigger hole too, it is indeed "stronger."

Different sources have varying data, but some suggest even the hottest .380 loads don't match any 9x18 loads.

[DG45]

I don't think there's a great difference, but there is a difference and it's generally in the 9x18mm Makarov cartridges favor.

If you've ever noticed, its hard to find head-to-head comparisons of these cartridges on a true apples-to-apples basis; ie., a comparison of the same bullet weight in each cartridge; when fired from the same barrel length, with all else being equal. What you generally see instead is a persimmons - to - kumquats type comparison, ie., exotic ammo made by different manufacturers being fired from different barrel lengths, and often with new commercial 380 barrels being used in the comparison vs. 40 year old miltary surplus Makarov (or Brand X) barrels

The closest thing to a real apples-to-apples camparison I've seen are the stats provided by Sellier & Belliot for their 95 grain FMJ 9x18mm Makarov cartridges and their 92 grain FMJ 380 auto cartridges. They report the muzzle velocity of their slightly heavier Mak FMJ bullet as 1017 fps, vs. a 990 fps muzzle velocity for their slighty lighter 380 FMJ bullet. We know the Mak has a slightly (actually miniscule) larger diameter bullet too; and maybe its an optical illusion, but to my naked eye, the Mak bullet looks blunter, which would be another advantage if true. So, heavier, faster, and maybe blunter equals clear advantage to the 9mm Makarov. The S&B 380 ammo from one on- line supplier sells regularly for $22.12 for a box of 50. Their 9x18 MM Mak ammo goes regularly for $17. 83. Another advantage to the Mak (although right now both calibers are being advertised by this seller for $14.99).

NOTE: You can buy 380 auto +P ammo if you choose to although a lot of the featherweight guns made to shoot 380 will probably not stand up to +P, even if the shooters of those guns can stand shooting it (which is questionable). But you might call that an advantage for 380, because as far as I know, nobody is yet making +P ammo for the 9x18mm Mak, but how long can it be before they do?

[denfoote]

I carried This East German Makarov for years.
I had no personal worries about whether the round would get the job done or not.

In fact, the solitary time I had to draw a weapon in defense of my house, that Makarov was in my hand!!!

The only reason I don't carry it regularly is that I became a Mak collector.

[gb_in_ga]

IIRC, the 9x18 Mak was intended to be an upsized, "improved" 9x17, the point was to make a round that pushed the envelope of what could be chambered in lower cost, Walther PP style blowback design handguns. And it does that pretty well. And that's how I think of it: An improved .380. If you feed it with modern design SD ammo and do your part, it'll do its part.

That said, no, it isn't a 9x19. It wasn't intended to be the commie counterpart of the 9x19. Higher pressure, more intense rounds like the 9x19 require more complicated, more expensive to manufacture locking mechanisms (unless you greatly increase the slide mass, like Hi-Point does, and several SMGs have done as well). And the Commies were aiming at something cheap and easy to produce.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that strange and mis-punctuated question, but given that the 9x18 is generally a little faster, a little heavier, and a makes a slightly bigger hole too, it is indeed "stronger."

Different sources have varying data, but some suggest even the hottest .380 loads don't match any 9x18 loads.

Yep. That's a pretty good summation of it. But the difference between a .380 and a 9x18 Mak isn't nearly as marked as the difference between a 9x18 Mak and a 9x19 Parabellum. The 9x18 Mak isn't midway between the 2, it is on the side of the .380.

[Catfishman]

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that strange and mis-punctuated question, but given that the 9x18 is generally a little faster, a little heavier, and a makes a slightly bigger hole too, it is indeed "stronger."

Different sources have varying data, but some suggest even the hottest .380 loads don't match any 9x18 loads.

I'm 100% sure that you know exactly what I meant. Sorry about the poor punctuation.

Thanks DG45. I asked the question because I didn't know the answer. Now I know.

Looks like the 9x18 is slightly more powerful, with the possible exception of .380 +P ammo.

[JQP]

The poll results are pretty amazing.

I am beginning to understand why my FFL guy bought his Makarov on a whim, and now carries it as his EDC.

This is a guy who can afford to carry and can access and procure any handgun he wishes.

[Dr_2_B]

I voted 'yes' but I don't choose to carry it because I prefer something more powerful. On the other hand, I love love love my Makarov.

[Rifleman 173]

If you hit a bad guy in the heart or between the running lights (eyes) with a 9 X 18 round, that bad guy has had a real bad day. Shot placement with any round, even a 9 by 18, is the key to effectiveness.

[DG45]

Yeah, the 9x18mm Makarov cartridge should be compared to 380 auto; not to 9mm Parabellum (aka 9mm Luger ammo). The Parabellum or Luger cartridge uses a longer cased 9x19mm cartridge which can be loaded quite a bit hotter than the 9x18mm Mak can, because the pistols that shoot the 9x19mm cartridge aren't straight blowback designs like the Makarov pistol is and most of the older 380's are. (Some modern 380's are also of locked breech design).

I have a Kel-Tec P3AT in 380 ACP, and a 9x18mm E. German Makarov pistol too, so I've got one gun of each caliber in this fight. I think there's a place for both.

I think that the 380 auto cartridge is the ideal marriage of cartridge to gun in a P3AT or LCP or such gun that's intended as a BUG or police undercover gun, or for a situation where truly concealed carry is a must for civilians, or for any situation where the desire for a big hitter bullet must be counter-balanced by the need for absolute concealment of the gun. I think the use of any bigger caliber than 380 for this purpose would require a bigger, heavier, bulkier, an ultimately less concealable gun to shoot it in.

I see my 9x18 mm EG Makarov pistol and some of the brand x pistols that shoot the same 9x18 mm Makarov cartridge as being reasonably concealable for shoulder holster use under a sports jacket or suit coat when its not absolutely neccesary that NOONE realize you're carrying a weapon. This means it's ok for detective type police work or for taking my wife out to dinner in nice restaurants which for some reason nowadays all seem to like to locate in "edgy" neighborhoods, and to other places where I don't care if someone sees a little bulge under my jacket.

The big advantage of a Mak is it's legendary reliability. You know when you pull the trigger it's going to go BANG! every time. Except for the grips, its an steel gun and it's pretty heavy for a gun of its caliber. That may be a problem if you carry a lot and want a lighter weight gun, but it's a real blessing when you really need a gun because it can be held dead on a target when firing in single action. True, it doesn't hit as hard as a 9x19mm but it is more powerful than a 380, and if you can halfway shoot and handle a gun, it'll hit what you're shooting at just about as fast as you can pull the trigger without forcing you to reaquire your target after every shot.

IMHO, my all-steel EG Makarov is just too big and too heavy for front pocket concealment though. I tried it once and my wife hit me with that great old Mae West line: "Do you think I'm attractive, or is that a gun in your pocket?"

My EG Mak was originally used by the Stasi (E. German Secret Police) for undercover/detective/other secret police type work. It came complete with its shoulder holster when I purchased it. The gun was in absolutely beautiful condition but its holster was the cheapest-looking POS I ever saw. I dumped the holster immediately and bought new. But shoulder holster carry was and is this guns special niche, in my opinion.

[torpeau]

Is a 9x18 really "stronger" than a .380. I know it should be, but is it.

Depending on what common brands you compare, the 9x18 could be roughly 15-25% more powerful based on manufacturers' specs.

[pythagorean]

I voted yes. I think there is a difference in "concealed" versus "open carry" by far.

A concealed situation means it is ALWAYS with you--no worries about size, clothing, weather, ease of carry.

Go light. Go small. Go reliable.

The bullets (no matter how small or large) in a handgun rely on placement more than anything else.

[obxned]

I first bought a pistol in 9x18 when .380 was impossible to find. I got a CZ-82. With the high magazine capacity, reasonable recoil, great accuracy, good trigger and compact size, it is often my carry pistol. After playing around with various ammo brands/types, I now shoot only Silver Bear JHPs. They aren't expensive so I practice with the pistol regularly.

Having shot a lot of 9x18 and 9mm rounds into various media, I have found that the 9x18 is not far off of 9mm performance. With the Silver Bear JHP, I get a little less expansion but nearly the same penetration as with a 9mm JHP. With +P 9mm ammo, the difference is a good bit greater. The 9mmMak is definitely stouter than .380, although the '+P' loadings I have tried come fairly close.

So, while I carry a P-3AT or PF-9 quite often, when capacity is more important than ultra-light weight, I take the CZ-82. It has become my ‘go to’ HD pistol also, since I have such confidence in both the pistol and the cartridge.

Some folks may think they need a bigger gun; I think they need more practice.

[bdb benzino]

I now shoot only Silver Bear JHPs. They aren't expensive so I practice with the pistol regularly.

This^^^, me too. There are outstanding deals to be had on line for this ammo, and I also like being able to afford practicing with the same ammo I carry!

[finloq]

Sorry to resurrect the dead here, but Obxned made one of the best statements on CC that I have ever seen.

"Some folks may think they need a bigger gun; I think they need more practice."

That should be on a freakin' T-Shirt!

[WIL TERRY]

IT IS NOTHING but a 380ACP with delusions of granduer.

REMEMBER THIS : A pistol to the Russians is nothing more than a tool to get rid of prisoners as soon as possile be shooting them in the back of the head.

[Pond, James Pond]

I once started a thread along the same lines. In an attempt to not get side-tracked by the guns that shot the carrtidges I gave a hypothetical situation that only dealt with the cartridges.

Have a read here if you're interested.

[Fishbed77]

The 9x18mm Makarov cartridge is said to be the most powerful that can be chambered in a straight blow-back pistol.

Someone is forgetting about the marvel of engineering that is the Hi-Point pistol.

[Crankgrinder]

delusions of grandeur... a hahahahahahahaha cant quit laughing

[Aguila Blanca]

Delete - sorry

[longknife12]

The ones that I saw that had been used were very effective!
Dan

[doofus47]

I carried a Mak for a couple years.
I've seen crime scene photos of drive bys using 380s. They seemed effective. I never worried about whether it would work for me.

[Luke1981]

I completely trust both of mine. The round is no 40 or 45, but be honest, beats the heck out of a rock or a stick!! I darn sure wouldn't want to take two to the chest. Would y'all?