Looks like the R51 is a bust. Can't say this surprises me. - Page 2

Gats Italian · February 11, 2014, 05:11 PM

That painfully bad article only managed to inform me that a semi-literate and ill-educated Glock owner—straight from General Glocking—owns a blog.

Sticks the web of his hand into the way of the slide travel.
Is a big fan of the range gimmick called "riding the reset," and can't figure out a different accommodation for a different gun when given 500 chances.
Can't discern the vast operational differences between the R-51 and the Luger.
Is befuddled by a simple machine's field strip and reassembly, just because it is a little different than what he is used to.
Thinks a fat-arsed Glock is the "same size" as a single stack 9mm pistol.
Uses phrases like "rocking awesome."

A chimp with access to an indoor range and a typewriter may well have done better.

qwiksdraw · February 11, 2014, 06:27 PM

You ever get the feeling that some people like to see others fail?

Auto5 · February 11, 2014, 07:07 PM

While I really have no plans to buy one, I noticed the part about having to engage the spring with the slide stop lever during reassembly or the gun would malfunction. The Kimber solo is the same way. My solution is to make sure my gun is correctly assembled so that it works properly.

gyvel · February 11, 2014, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Like all the law suits for (so-called) hammerless revolvers?

Apples and oranges. A ridiculous analogy. The Remington has an internal hammer that will be cocked when there is a round in the chamber.

This is akin to a 1911 with a round in the chamber under cocked hammer and no manual safety. I mean, it would have a grip safety and firing pin block too. Right?

(At least a Series 80, anyway.)

And yes, I'm aware that John M. Browning didn't like safeties.

SHE3PDOG · February 11, 2014, 07:19 PM

I don't take too much of what internet reciews say about guns to heart. They either love or hate the gun they review without trying to be unbiased at all. I'd rather read what bunch of TFLers had to say about theirs once they get it on the range. Even then, I'd still want to shoot it before buying.

**44 AMP** · February 11, 2014, 08:25 PM

I did get a kick out of his calling the slide stop reassembly sequence a "design flaw".

A design flaw is when, assembled run as designed, the mechanism fails to operate properly, or damages itself during operation.

Something that isn't what you think it ought to be isn't a design flaw, its an opinion.

There are lots of things I consider less than optimal, or even downright stupid. And I am often at a lack when it comes to understanding why the designers did it that way. But the fact that it IS done that way (no matter what "it" is) means they intended to do it that way. That's not a flaw.

Fishbed77 · February 11, 2014, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Apples and oranges. A ridiculous analogy. The Remington has an internal hammer that will be cocked when there is a round in the chamber.

How is it a "ridiculous analogy" when it matches the exact set of criteria (concealed hammer and no manual safety) that you established?

Perhaps you should have been more rational in your approach before you declared a firearm you have no firsthand experience with or clear technical understanding of before you declared it unsafe.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that, for such a high-profile product, Remington is going to go out of their way to make it safe in operation. If not, expect some quicks recalls to make it right (as with the Shield, XDs, and SR9).

jfrey · February 11, 2014, 10:12 PM

Just doesn't look like a gun I would be interested in. Don't care for the aesthetics.

gyvel · February 11, 2014, 11:05 PM

Quote:

How is it a "ridiculous analogy" when it matches the exact set of criteria (concealed hammer and no manual safety) that you established?

Simple. The concealed hammer in a "hammerless" revolver is at rest, not cocked over a loaded chamber, and thus has the same status as any other double action revolver when the hammer is not cocked.

Quote:

Perhaps you should have been more rational in your approach before you declared a firearm you have no firsthand experience with or clear technical understanding of before you declared it unsafe.

You are right that I have not handled the new Remington, but I have worked on enough 51s to understand how the Pedersen system works. I stand by my original statement that the lack of a manual safety when you have an internal COCKED hammer is a big mistake. I would never trust ANY gun with a loaded chamber under a cocked hammer to just a grip safety.

Here's a good example: The original FN Browning Model 1905 .25 ACP auto (European predecessor of the Colt Model 1908 .25 auto) had only a grip safety to prevent the spring driven striker from firing a loaded cartridge. It wasn't very long before the mistake was realized and a thumb safety was added (as well as a magazine disconnect).

SIGSHR · February 11, 2014, 11:36 PM

No steel frame-no sale for me.

Cheapshooter · February 11, 2014, 11:41 PM

Quote:

. I would never trust ANY gun with a loaded chamber under a cocked hammer to just a grip safety.

Bet you really don't like my KAHR CM9 with a loaded striker spring, and no safety at all! Probably thousands of law suits as you mentioned in your OP. Care to site two, or three?

The more I see the new Remington, the more I want one!

The more I read The Truth About Guns, the more I think they left out the as I see it in the title.

gyvel · February 11, 2014, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Bet you really don't like my KAHR CM9 with a loaded striker spring, and no safety at all! Probably thousands of law suits as you mentioned in your OP. Care to site two, or three?

The striker in your Kahr (or Glock or XD or any other polymer gun) is not at full cock over a loaded chamber It requires a long DA pull of the trigger to bring the striker back to be fully spring loaded before it releases. It's the same system that was used on the Austro-Hungarian Model 1907 Roth Steyr cavalry pistol.

Actually, I do like the Kahr pistols, BTW, or at least the all-steel ones.

Again, it's apples and oranges.

The Remington's hammer is at FULL cock over a loaded chamber. There's no long DA pull to fully compress the spring. To repeat: It's the same as a loaded, cocked 1911 with no thumb safety.

But, by all means: Get one if you like it.

I mean nobody ever sues a gun manufacturer, do they?

gc70 · February 11, 2014, 11:52 PM

I can overlook the sour grapes in the article because I read gun reviews for facts and try to discern when opinions are derived from facts or preferences.

What I cannot overlook is the presentation of inaccurate information in the size comparison article that accompanied the review. The size comparison said the R51 was "almost exactly the same size" as a "Commander-size" 1911 on the 10th, but that was changed to an "Officer sized" 1911 on the 11th. Neither comparison was correct.

The 1911 used in the comparison was a Bill Wilson Carry Pistol. The "almost exactly the same size" R51 is nearly an inch less in length and over a quarter inch less in height.

Brotherbadger · February 12, 2014, 01:12 AM

Ah, that's too bad. I was interested in one, but i always like to wait till they've been out a while so i can hear some first hand knowledge. Maybe it won't be as bad as the review says, but it definately disappoints me a little bit.

fiream29 · February 12, 2014, 02:06 AM

Hey Remington, Spaceballs called and they want their pistols back! Sorry but that poor thing is just plain fugly.

Nakanokalronin · February 12, 2014, 06:16 AM

One reviewers opinion and Remington is already tweeking it before it's release after feedback from SHOT and those that actually fired it, so it should be improved upon before it hits the shelves. I see this as a good thing since most manufactures today allow the consumer to be the beta tester and then do recalls and "upgrades" later on.

lee n. field · February 12, 2014, 08:47 AM

Quote:

The Remington's hammer is at FULL cock over a loaded chamber. There's no long DA pull to fully compress the spring. To repeat: It's the same as a loaded, cocked 1911 with no thumb safety.

The XD is the same. Full spring tension on the striker, nothing but a grip safety and striker block.

If they were prone to accidental discharge, they'd have been off the market long ago.

RUT · February 12, 2014, 08:48 AM

>>You ever get the feeling that some people like to see others fail?<<

No matter what new gun comes out there are those who can't wait for it to fail. (unless it's a 1911 of course)

Kevin_d77 · February 12, 2014, 08:49 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the PPQ also have a full cocked striker and zero safety except the trigger dingus? Haven't heard of any lawsuits on those either.

Skadoosh · February 12, 2014, 08:51 AM

I wont buy a 'compact' gun designed for concealed carry, chambered in 380...that is as big as Commander 1911.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-r51/p1340533/

Nakanokalronin · February 12, 2014, 08:53 AM

Skadoosh, the R51 is a 9mm.

RX-79G · February 12, 2014, 10:17 AM

An XD is fully cocked.

Don P · February 12, 2014, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Yeesh. Everybody's an expert on the internet.

Yep and everything we read is the absolute bottom line truth, right??

**44 AMP** · February 12, 2014, 11:03 AM

I think Remington missed a bet on this one. It ought to have a safety lever (or button). Not because it needs one, but because it will have broader market appeal if it had one.

It has a firing pin block, right? OK, so we will assume it is "drop safe" because of that. And it has a passive safety, the grip safety. Personally, I find this idea "safer" than the GLock style tab on the trigger.

Quote:

It's the same as a loaded, cocked 1911 with no thumb safety.

And just what, exactly, is your problem with that?

buck460XVR · February 12, 2014, 11:44 AM

Whether you liked his synopsis or not, he did raise some valid concerns....especially for those not well experienced in gun handling and maintenance. Biased? Of course. Not unlike most other gun reviews tho. Like other gun reviews one must take it with a grain of salt. While I realize the aesthetics of the gun were derived for ergonomics and ease of carry, I still wonder if there is a button somewhere to set it to "stun".

February 11, 2014, 05:11 PM	#26
Gats Italian Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Posts: 451	That painfully bad article only managed to inform me that a semi-literate and ill-educated Glock owner—straight from General Glocking—owns a blog. Sticks the web of his hand into the way of the slide travel. Is a big fan of the range gimmick called "riding the reset," and can't figure out a different accommodation for a different gun when given 500 chances. Can't discern the vast operational differences between the R-51 and the Luger. Is befuddled by a simple machine's field strip and reassembly, just because it is a little different than what he is used to. Thinks a fat-arsed Glock is the "same size" as a single stack 9mm pistol. Uses phrases like "rocking awesome." A chimp with access to an indoor range and a typewriter may well have done better. __________________ Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

February 11, 2014, 07:07 PM	#28
Auto5 Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2013 Location: Chicago suburbs Posts: 662	While I really have no plans to buy one, I noticed the part about having to engage the spring with the slide stop lever during reassembly or the gun would malfunction. The Kimber solo is the same way. My solution is to make sure my gun is correctly assembled so that it works properly. __________________ At the young age of five, a bear told me that I was the only person who could prevent forest fires. Why I was chosen, I'll never know.

February 11, 2014, 07:19 PM	#30
SHE3PDOG Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2013 Posts: 988	I don't take too much of what internet reciews say about guns to heart. They either love or hate the gun they review without trying to be unbiased at all. I'd rather read what bunch of TFLers had to say about theirs once they get it on the range. Even then, I'd still want to shoot it before buying. __________________ Semper Fi Marine, NRA member, SAF Defender's Club member, and constitutionally protected keeper and bearer of firearms

February 11, 2014, 08:25 PM	#31
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,817	I did get a kick out of his calling the slide stop reassembly sequence a "design flaw". A design flaw is when, assembled run as designed, the mechanism fails to operate properly, or damages itself during operation. Something that isn't what you think it ought to be isn't a design flaw, its an opinion. There are lots of things I consider less than optimal, or even downright stupid. And I am often at a lack when it comes to understanding why the designers did it that way. But the fact that it IS done that way (no matter what "it" is) means they intended to do it that way. That's not a flaw. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 12, 2014, 01:12 AM	#39
Brotherbadger Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2010 Posts: 1,149	Ah, that's too bad. I was interested in one, but i always like to wait till they've been out a while so i can hear some first hand knowledge. Maybe it won't be as bad as the review says, but it definately disappoints me a little bit. __________________ Once Fired Brass, Top quality, Fast shipping, Best prices. http://300AacBrass.com/ -10% Coupon use code " badger "

February 11, 2014, 10:12 PM	#33
jfrey Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Location: Coastal South Texas Posts: 557	Just doesn't look like a gun I would be interested in. Don't care for the aesthetics.

February 11, 2014, 11:36 PM	#35
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	No steel frame-no sale for me.

February 11, 2014, 11:52 PM	#38
gc70 Senior Member Join Date: May 24, 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,903	I can overlook the sour grapes in the article because I read gun reviews for facts and try to discern when opinions are derived from facts or preferences. What I cannot overlook is the presentation of inaccurate information in the size comparison article that accompanied the review. The size comparison said the R51 was "almost exactly the same size" as a "Commander-size" 1911 on the 10th, but that was changed to an "Officer sized" 1911 on the 11th. Neither comparison was correct. The 1911 used in the comparison was a Bill Wilson Carry Pistol. The "almost exactly the same size" R51 is nearly an inch less in length and over a quarter inch less in height.

February 12, 2014, 02:06 AM	#40
fiream29 Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Location: BFE S. Texas Posts: 54	Hey Remington, Spaceballs called and they want their pistols back! Sorry but that poor thing is just plain fugly.

February 12, 2014, 06:16 AM	#41
Nakanokalronin Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2006 Posts: 1,066	One reviewers opinion and Remington is already tweeking it before it's release after feedback from SHOT and those that actually fired it, so it should be improved upon before it hits the shelves. I see this as a good thing since most manufactures today allow the consumer to be the beta tester and then do recalls and "upgrades" later on.

February 12, 2014, 08:48 AM	#43
RUT Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2004 Location: NH, USA Posts: 812	>>You ever get the feeling that some people like to see others fail?<< No matter what new gun comes out there are those who can't wait for it to fail. (unless it's a 1911 of course) __________________ Liberals don't care what you do... as long as it's mandated.

February 12, 2014, 08:49 AM	#44
Kevin_d77 Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2012 Location: SW FL Posts: 953	Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the PPQ also have a full cocked striker and zero safety except the trigger dingus? Haven't heard of any lawsuits on those either.

February 12, 2014, 08:51 AM	#45
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	I wont buy a 'compact' gun designed for concealed carry, chambered in 380...that is as big as Commander 1911. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-r51/p1340533/ __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

February 12, 2014, 08:53 AM	#46
Nakanokalronin Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2006 Posts: 1,066	Skadoosh, the R51 is a 9mm.

February 12, 2014, 10:17 AM	#47
RX-79G Junior member Join Date: October 27, 2013 Posts: 1,139	An XD is fully cocked.

February 12, 2014, 11:44 AM	#50
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	Whether you liked his synopsis or not, he did raise some valid concerns....especially for those not well experienced in gun handling and maintenance. Biased? Of course. Not unlike most other gun reviews tho. Like other gun reviews one must take it with a grain of salt. While I realize the aesthetics of the gun were derived for ergonomics and ease of carry, I still wonder if there is a button somewhere to set it to "stun".