Did I do the right thing? Or should I have used force? - Page 4

kilimanjaro · July 17, 2011, 03:29 PM

You did good by getting out of there without using your weapon.

No wimp factor involved, not one bit.

Next time someone in another car cuts you off, don't let them get out and approach. Get out of there. If you can't leave, lock up and arm yourself.

Mello2u · July 17, 2011, 07:31 PM

You did not wimp out.

You conquered your emotions and continued to think your way out of a bad situation.

One concept that all persons who might ever use a firearm in self-defense must understand is that the only justified use of deadly force is to end an imminent deadly or of great bodily harm threat. Use of deadly force is not justified to vent your anger or to get revenge.

Would you have liked to have the driving skill to back out of there fast and execute a 180 degree turn, to leave them in the dust? Defensive driving school.

threegun · July 18, 2011, 04:35 PM

Quote:

One concept that all persons who might ever use a firearm in self-defense must understand is that the only justified use of deadly force is to end an imminent deadly or of great bodily harm threat. Use of deadly force is not justified to vent your anger or to get revenge.

You make it sound like if the OP pulled and fired it would be to avenge a fat lip and not end a three on one attack.

silentargus · July 18, 2011, 09:10 PM

Whether or not the shooting would have been justified is irrelevant IMO. The OP should have locked his doors, and should have bugged out as soon as the BGs moved to block him... but in the end he proved himself the better man. Everyone went home with their lives, if not their dignity intact. Every mistake has a lesson hidden inside it... avoiding those sorts of situations is one such lesson.

Remember that not everyone has the option of legally carrying a gun. Road rage happens plenty often, if not more, in states where CCW is forbidden or restricted to the social elite. If this happened to me tomorrow, all I'd have is a can of pepper spray. Getting out of a bad situation is always better than merely getting through it... because sometimes fighting isn't an option at all.

I remember the encounter that 'enhanced' my awareness... I was leaving a friend's house late at night in Chester, PA- unarmed, as I was returning to NJ that night. A man approached my window at a stop light (between cars but not really boxed in), and I really didn't know what do do. Turns out all he wanted was bus money- I dropped some change into his hand out the top of the window, which was barely cracked open. I didn't know he was there until he was literally right next to my car. That's when I started locking my doors, and that's about when I started carrying a can of pepper spray in the car (in addition to the one on my person, which is the best I can do in NJ). I'm also one hell of a lot more aware when I'm stopped, for any reason, especially at night.

I'm just lucky as hell that the guy who gave me that wake-up call was just some poor guy who needed change for a ride- if he'd been a carjacker or some other lesser life form, I'd have been totally screwed. I thought I was playing it pretty safe, but here some dude who wasn't even trying to be sneaky caught me by surprise so badly that it didn't even occur to me to punch the gas and run. This was a few months after I got my FL CCW license. The only reason I wasn't carrying is because I was heading for home, in NJ; I'm legal to carry throughout PA. I honestly don't know if I'd have drawn my weapon if I'd had it on me.

Sometimes the shock of realizing that yes, this is happening to you is enough to cause hesitation. Realize what that hesitation could cost you, and try not to make the same mistakes twice. If that means drawing down on a threat, then do so... but also realize that you might not always be able to do that. You might not always have your CCW with you; you might not be legally able to carry any weapon at all. Sometimes running is not just an option, it's the only viable option.

So, speaking as someone who couldn't have drawn and fired in the same situation in my own home state (or even in neighboring states if I'm only there briefly), the OP made a good call. The worst mistake he made was waiting too long to make it, but in all likelihood he saved himself a trip to the hospital- or worse.

Mello2u · July 19, 2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

threegun

Quote:

Mello2u
One concept that all persons who might ever use a firearm in self-defense must understand is that the only justified use of deadly force is to end an imminent deadly or of great bodily harm threat. Use of deadly force is not justified to vent your anger or to get revenge.

You make it sound like if the OP pulled and fired it would be to avenge a fat lip and not end a three on one attack.

If you think my stating the fundamental concept of use of deadly force in self-defense makes firing under the described circumstances seem unjustified; just think what a prosecutor could do who is advocating for the conviction of a person who has been arrested for taking such actions.

A prosecutor who decides to indict has a high probability to get an indictment. This would mean that the one arrested and charged with a crime would need to come up with considerable assets to pay a competent criminal defense attorney and funds to secure a bond as well. In addition to the financial stress, the emotional stress of being a defendant in a criminal proceeding is probably great. Lesser stresses have contributed to divorce and other detrimental life changes.

So even if a person is not convicted of a crime, the financial and emotional cost can be devastating. Thus, it should be part of the calculation you make now while you can calmly consider the various ramifications of your actions before you find yourself in a situation where you might be justified in using deadly force in self-defense but have the means to safely retreat.

Is it better to use deadly force justified by self-defense when you can safely get away, and risk getting arrested and prosecuted for a felony? Or is it better to control your emotions and get away without using deadly force?

These sort of posts are valuable to the readers here because they can help us consider how we should act. We can calmly consider in the fullness of time what our best goals should be.

My quote that threegun referenced was not in any way a comment upon razorburn's actions. My only comment on razorburn's actions as related by his original posts was:

Quote:

You did not wimp out.

You conquered your emotions and continued to think your way out of a bad situation.

July 17, 2011, 07:31 PM	#77
Mello2u Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,424	You did not wimp out. You conquered your emotions and continued to think your way out of a bad situation. One concept that all persons who might ever use a firearm in self-defense must understand is that the only justified use of deadly force is to end an imminent deadly or of great bodily harm threat. Use of deadly force is not justified to vent your anger or to get revenge. Would you have liked to have the driving skill to back out of there fast and execute a 180 degree turn, to leave them in the dust? Defensive driving school. __________________ NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat Last edited by Mello2u; July 17, 2011 at 11:27 PM.

July 17, 2011, 03:29 PM	#76
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	You did good by getting out of there without using your weapon. No wimp factor involved, not one bit. Next time someone in another car cuts you off, don't let them get out and approach. Get out of there. If you can't leave, lock up and arm yourself.

July 18, 2011, 09:10 PM	#79
silentargus Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2010 Posts: 146	Whether or not the shooting would have been justified is irrelevant IMO. The OP should have locked his doors, and should have bugged out as soon as the BGs moved to block him... but in the end he proved himself the better man. Everyone went home with their lives, if not their dignity intact. Every mistake has a lesson hidden inside it... avoiding those sorts of situations is one such lesson. Remember that not everyone has the option of legally carrying a gun. Road rage happens plenty often, if not more, in states where CCW is forbidden or restricted to the social elite. If this happened to me tomorrow, all I'd have is a can of pepper spray. Getting out of a bad situation is always better than merely getting through it... because sometimes fighting isn't an option at all. I remember the encounter that 'enhanced' my awareness... I was leaving a friend's house late at night in Chester, PA- unarmed, as I was returning to NJ that night. A man approached my window at a stop light (between cars but not really boxed in), and I really didn't know what do do. Turns out all he wanted was bus money- I dropped some change into his hand out the top of the window, which was barely cracked open. I didn't know he was there until he was literally right next to my car. That's when I started locking my doors, and that's about when I started carrying a can of pepper spray in the car (in addition to the one on my person, which is the best I can do in NJ). I'm also one hell of a lot more aware when I'm stopped, for any reason, especially at night. I'm just lucky as hell that the guy who gave me that wake-up call was just some poor guy who needed change for a ride- if he'd been a carjacker or some other lesser life form, I'd have been totally screwed. I thought I was playing it pretty safe, but here some dude who wasn't even trying to be sneaky caught me by surprise so badly that it didn't even occur to me to punch the gas and run. This was a few months after I got my FL CCW license. The only reason I wasn't carrying is because I was heading for home, in NJ; I'm legal to carry throughout PA. I honestly don't know if I'd have drawn my weapon if I'd had it on me. Sometimes the shock of realizing that yes, this is happening to you is enough to cause hesitation. Realize what that hesitation could cost you, and try not to make the same mistakes twice. If that means drawing down on a threat, then do so... but also realize that you might not always be able to do that. You might not always have your CCW with you; you might not be legally able to carry any weapon at all. Sometimes running is not just an option, it's the only viable option. So, speaking as someone who couldn't have drawn and fired in the same situation in my own home state (or even in neighboring states if I'm only there briefly), the OP made a good call. The worst mistake he made was waiting too long to make it, but in all likelihood he saved himself a trip to the hospital- or worse.