Did you survive the 21 ft test?

[Samurai]

I agree wholeheartedly with Stephen426. When your attacker has a knife, you are NOT gun-training, even if you have a gun. You're knife-training. Knife-training is about adapting empty-hand martial arts. A good side step, a good side kick, these are things that are used to defend against a knife. Guns can ensure a mutual slaying, but that's all. Guns are purely offensive weapons. (With the exception of large rifles, which point the stock can be used as a club...)

I have only two major points to add: First, you're going to get cut, and second, I'm not a TKD guy...

Point one: You're going to get cut.
I practice Iaido and Kendo, among other things (Isshin-Ruy Karate, Muso Shindo Jodo, Aikido...). So, I play with sharp things quite a bit. I will occasionally train with live swords, and for a long time, a live sword was all I had (it was cheaper than a dulled sword). I have cut myself many, many times training with blades. And, upon entering our class, my Sensei and I will stress one MAJOR point with training: If you train with blades, YOU WILL GET CUT.

How is this at all relevant to the present discussion? The point is, if you are training against a knife attacker, expect to take damage. The "21-foot test" is inherently flawed, because the test is to see if you can shoot the guy down before you take ANY damage. This is simply not going to happen in real life. If you are attacked with a knife, you WILL GET CUT. The trick is to minimize your damage taken. Stephen426 is right on, because he advocates pushing off of the attacker (with his kick). Get distance between you and them... But this brings us to...

Point two: I'm not a TKD guy...
I can swing a sword with the greatest of ease. I can also punch, arm lock, and throw with moderate competence. I can't kick worth a flip! I can barely raise my leg to knee-level, and I wouldn't try to kick the knees out of a running assailant in a time of crisis. So, am I defenseless in this situation? Of course not!

The point is not to "deliver a side kick" per se. The point is, if a knife assailant is running toward you, GET YOUR GUARD UP! Put your hand out, and try to absorb the damage in your extremities. Don't take the knife to the chest, take it to the arm or the hand! You'll live. You'll have to go to the hospital for stitches, but you'll live. You can live a long time with your arm completely severed. A penetrating stab wound to the arm is survivable... So is a stab wound to the leg, if you can raise your leg that high...

"But, Samurai," you say, "How can I draw my gun if my arm is cut up?" That's why I use the singular "hand" instead of "hands." Take the damage in your non-weapon hand. Keep your weapon hand at low ready, held in close to your body. Extend your non-weapon hand to keep the attacker at arms reach. Shoot, shoot, shoot!!!

Now, we need to apply what we've learned!
Let's do a new drill. Start with a buddy at 21 feet. Have him run at you with a rubber knife. With the weapon on your right side, spin to the left, extending your left hand to meet the attacker. At the same time, draw with your right hand and shoot your friend from the hip as many times as you can. (Snap caps, please!...)

How do we know if the drill worked? If you only take damage from the shoulder down your arm, it worked. You killed your buddy, and you took survivable damage. Now, when it works (and it will work), repeat this excercise 1,000 times. Repeat it again. Then after that, repeat it again!

Train, train, train!

[5whiskey]

great post Samurai

[Samurai]

Thank you.

[Skyguy]

Train, train, train!

Your post had some good info and advice.
But 'most' people don't - or can't - train, train, train.

People under close attack will instinctively extend their arms to fend off an attacker.
They will instinctively sidestep/move to avoid injury. No training required.

So, for the average non-training cc guy, it's best to develop accuracy, situational avoidance/awareness
.......and the 'early' draw.
.

[Shaun]

i disagree with the ability to take wounds then counter attack. Unless youre wearing a leather jacket, a sharp knife will cut very deep into the arm area. This will cause your body to go into shock...you have about 5-10 seconds tops...more like 3. If you get cut 2-3 times you well begin to bleed in a few seconds and your heart will race and your body will begin to fight against you. You cannot train effectively because you dont know how your body will react to large wounds. If someone has a knife, bat, stick or whatever and they bullrush you....get out of their way. Side step then run away, get yourself in the position to get your weapon out. If you get cut, and you get cut bad, you will lose. Unless you know you can stop them without being cut, and most people cant know for sure, the best bet is to run away from the attack, until you can counter. A good practice for this is with a large black marker. Take your airsoft or redgun and have your pal attack from 21 feet using the marker like a blade.......i guarantee even when you know its coming, youll get "cut." See where the cuts land....then try the same scenario, but instead of pulling your gun or attempting to pull it, evade and elude the attack. This time you will probably have less "cuts."

[Samurai]

Shaun and I are on the same page, I think.

The whole purpose of the "extended weak arm" drill is to place distance between your vitals and the knife. Key to this concept is getting out of the way. When you run this drill, absolutely do NOT stand still while you're fending off the attacker. MOVE! Get out of the way, side step, evade, you can even just-plain run away. The point of the extended non-weapon arm is to never allow the attacker to get within range of you to strike your body or neck. But by all means, don't just stand there and hold the guy with your left hand while he fillets your whole arm! Get away from him!

The marker suggestion is a good idea, if you don't mind getting marker ink all over yourself. A stick covered in mud is another way to do it, and the mud washes off easier. If you allow more than around two cuts to land on your arm before you've drawn and fired, then you need to practice more.

You should be able to draw and shoot the guy in a matter of seconds. You won't bleed out of your arm in that timespan. Weird sickos (like me) can even practice unbuckling your belt with your weapon hand and applying a tourniquet to your left arm, if you're really obsessed about the bleed-time factor.

In knife fighting, the name of the game is survival. You don't have to come out looking pretty. You don't even have to come out walking. But you do have to live through it. This drill will teach you one method of surviving. There are other methods, each perfectly valid. There are also many refinements to this method. (For example, are you reaching for the knife arm, or are you reaching for the non-knife shoulder? One will provide you better control over the attacker's weapon, the other will put more distance between you and the knife.)

Play with it, and have fun...

[McBrideGuns]

just wondering seeing how i am in a wheelchair how would this excercise work for me being that my practice partner wouldnt be standing "heel to heel" with me how would they need to stand in relation to me?

[Samurai]

Wow, McBrideGuns! I'm not really sure how to answer your question... Here's where we find out the sad truth that I'm not that great a martial arts instructor. My Sensei would be able to break this down for you; he usually teaches us these techniques from a sitting position as well as standing, and we all applaud him on his ability to adapt to the needs of his individual students. I am not as good as he is, so it's difficult for me to modify the technique to suit your situation.

I guess I'd need to know a little bit more about your mobility. Are you in a motorized wheelchair, or manual operation? Are you strong enough to whip your chair around in a circle really fast? How easily could you just move away from the attacker?

I have two theories: First, if you can move in a circle really fast, then do exactly what I originally suggested: Push your left hand out to keep the knife away, and shoot from the hip with your right hand. The underlying premise is exactly the same; you're keeping the knife away from your body. You'd just have to make sure to place your hand in contact with the knife hand to compensate for the inability to open up distance with footwork. This will take added dexterity, and it will be more difficult!

The other immediately foreseeable option is to fall to the floor. (Yeah, I know. It's not a great option...) Remember, you only need seconds. Just seconds to deliver a few good shots to this guy, and he'll die, and you won't. If you can't get the wheelchair to spin around quickly, then as the attacker comes in from behind, throw yourself to the floor, landing on your left side (weapon is up!). The wheelchair will be between you and him, so it will slow down the charge. Then, you draw and unload on him. He will likely have to stoop to cut you when you're on the floor, and that may give you all the time you need.

Now, if you practice this second option, remember to shoot one-handed, and keep that non-weapon hand up! Taking one to the arm is better than taking one to the chest or throat any day.

This is intriguing! I will see my martial arts instructor again on Monday evening. If this thread is still open at that time, I'll ask him about it. He might be able to help us further.

Keep training!

[Shaun]

fending off an attacker and trying to make quick shots on COM???...great reason to invest in some Crimson Trace Laser grips.....decisions decisions....

[Rusty Stud]

Um, i was woundering if the snap kick might be a better kick to use.
This is the kick i practice most, and i always liked it because it was fast and strong. Keep in mind I have absolutly NO Martial arts or fighting exp.
so whatever advise you give will likley be applied to my little training regiem.
In other words tell me why the side kick is better, and where should you try to kick for serious damage.

[5whiskey]

I think the purpose behind the side kick was to put more distance between your vitals and the knife. Anything will work better than nothing. Snap kick, front kick, side kick, whatever man. The particular method is up to the person, but I would probably be squared off to the threat initially. To land a side kick this means I would have to turn, which may take a little longer. Either way, probably the preferred target is either the groin or solarplexas. Groin is pretty hard to miss and causes alot of pain. Solarplexas isn't hard to find but you have to get inside of their arms to hit it. Not usually as hard with a kick, if it's a surprise. If you hit the solarplexas, they're not going to pursue the attack... I would go for the groin personally.

Kick to the groin as you're drawing your pistol, but keep your week hand up the whole while to protect yourself.

[stephen426]

Rusty Stud,

with a side kick, your torso tilts to the opposite side of your kicking leg and places your vitals the furthest away from your attacker. The side kick is a thrusting kick (extension) which directs the force outwards. A snap kick is a lifting type kick (even though you should kick with the ball of your foot) and does not generate the power of the side kick. This is because the side kick uses your quadriceps and your gluteus maximum (the largest muscle in your body) versus mainly your quadriceps for the snap kick. Furthermore, a strong snap kick should be delivered weight forward, putting your vitals in greater danger of being cut. In a sense the side kick gives you greater range, especially if you do a sliding side kick.

The turn required to execute a side kick takes just a fraction of a second and is worth the extra range and safety in my opinion. As for where to strike, I would say the stomach or chest is the ideal place. The higher you or lower you kick with a side kick, the more energy you lose on a horizontal axis. That is why Bruce Lee advocated most kicks be delivered at the waist level. You also get the most range on a horizontal axis. If you kick the attacker in the chest, you will effectively stop his charge. Since his arms are attached to the upper part of his torso, he cannot "fold over" and still cut your body. If you hit him low and double him over, he still might cut your torso as he doubles over. One advantage of a lower kick (say the stomach or groin) is that he will have great difficulty in blocking your kick (especially since he is charging you). His arms have much more leverage higher up to sweep the kick away compared to down around his stomach or groin. Besides, his hands should either be chest level for a thrust type attack or high over his head for a downward stab attack. This allows for an open shot lower down with less of a likelihood of having your leg cut. One very important thing is to block any attacks with your arms (weak arm preferably). You may still get cut, but a well placed side kick ought to take a lot of the fight out of your attacker. If not, it should at least buy you enough time to draw and shoot.

[Skyguy]

All this technique talk here is great entertainment, but the flat out reality is that if you engage in a real knife fight....odds are great that you'll die. Gun or not.

Most people have never even been in a fistfight or a street fight let alone a knife fight. Most people never grapple or strike. Some HTH train, but it means little against a knife.
Because of the false confidence that empty hand SD conveys, it could get you killed.

Learn this:
Run from a knife encounter....use cover...create distance...use anything to maintain distance; a tree, garbage can, bushes, fence, furniture, etc.
And 'do not' try to use HTH unless there is no escape route or you're trapped.

Live to fight another day!

Dream on........
.

[5whiskey]

Most people have never even been in a fistfight or a street fight let alone a knife fight. Most people never grapple or strike. Some HTH train, but it means little against a knife.
Because of the false confidence that empty hand SD conveys, it could get you killed.

I realize many on here do not train for it, but I have quite a bit. We even still train bayonet techniques (more than you would think). Most of MCMAP is geared less toward high flying kicks and punches and more on situations such as this. Encounters when you are wearing body armor, encounters wearing every day clothing, encounters CLOSE range when both have firearms (pistol and rifle grappling, basically), encounters when you have a firearm vs. a club or knife, ect. Now, don't get me wrong, alot of Marine Corps martial arts is pretty cheesy. What is not cheesy, though, is that we prac-ap pretty close to real life (i.e. we beat the crap out of each other, but it's good training).

I don't want to take anything away from the fact that you're going to get cut, but if you react well it should be contained to the extremities.

Probably the most important point of all is that, as with any other encounter with any attacker, is to make an attempt to flee first and foremost.
The exception being if you're trying to save anothers life by some hero stuff, and if you want to do that it's on you. I'm not going to say I wouldn't help, but I'm not going to recommend it to anyone else. I think how I would react would be situation dependant. With any encounter, you should be attempting to flee WHILE DRAWING YOUR WEAPON. So in essence, we both offer sage advice. Yours probably many times more so unless flight is not an option, which is the only reason I promote the option of either getting out of the attackers way or delivering a kick WHILE YOU DRAW as an option.

[Samurai]

Skyguy, I appreciate your sentiment, and you make a valid point. It's stupid to try to implement all this scenario-theory of bringing down a knife assailant if you have the option to simply run away. I get what you're saying there. Always avoid/evade conflict, if you can.

But, I think you're fighting against the hypothetical that we're discussing, here. You're telling us, "don't try to fight, just run away." And, of course that makes sense. Self-defense against a knife is similar to self-defense against a gun, in that, if you have the option to get away, you should ALWAYS take it. But, that's not what we're talking about here.

The scenario we're theorizing/training with here is: You can't get away. You're being charged at 21 feet by a guy with a knife, and he aims to run up and stab/slash you with the knife. You have reasonable space to move, but there's nowhere to run. You're confined in this space. You have a gun. What do you do?

If you're in a big empty field, the answer is simple: Evade the attack, and then run like the dickens! But, in OUR hypo, you're NOT in a big empty field.

I am well aware of the statistics involved in surviving a knife fight. It AIN'T good, for EITHER combatant. When in doubt, don't get in a knife fight. But, all of this is merely "fighting the hypo."

Do you understand what I'm saying? Does this in any way change your outlook on this exercise?

[Skyguy]

With any encounter, you should be attempting to flee WHILE DRAWING YOUR WEAPON.

Agreed.

I'm just trying to convey reality.

Many people believe that their anemic or newly found HTH is a foolproof defense against an untrained knife wielder. That can get them killed.
Even a highly trained and skilled MA pro will only escape injury about half the time, at best.
A novice is nearly a dead man walking....and therefore should 'disengage and withdraw'.

There are SD handgun instructors who also teach SD knife tactics....never telling the wide eyed student the odds of escaping uninjured or alive. Never emphasizing awareness, distance first and cover/obstacles. Never explaining that a knife wound or stab is usually worse than a .45 to the same spot.

Again, false confidence and poor training that can get you killed.
.

[Skyguy]

The scenario we're theorizing/training with here is: You can't get away. You're being charged at 21 feet by a guy with a knife, and he aims to run up and stab/slash you with the knife. You have reasonable space to move, but there's nowhere to run. You're confined in this space. You have a gun. What do you do?

The truth??

Invoke your god, prepare to die....then fight like hell.

People that try to kill up close and personal usually finish the job.
.

[Samurai]

Skyguy, I think you speak an unfortunate truth. Lots of people train, and then when they develop some moderate skill, they believe they are bullet-proof. They believe that they can walk into any situation, without regard for how dangerous it is, because they can always just "whoop-out a can of Kik But Foo." In my dojo, we call this the Cobra-Kai Syndrome, and it will often get the ego-centric novice into alot of trouble.

Knife fights are bad situations. Chances are overwhelming that, if you get into a knife fight, you're going to get hurt REALLY bad. Yes. A 1" thick, 3" long knife blade can often leave a hole that bleeds worse than a bullet wound. (Remind me to tell you about sinking my live katana into my left knee 2 days before my brown belt test in Iaido... God, what a mess!)

But, does this mean that when you see a guy with a knife, and you can't get away from him, that you automatically just lay down and accept death? NEVER!!! These techniques will take your survivability from 15% and elevate it to around 35% or 40%. More often than not if you get into a knife fight - even if you do the technique right, you're going to suffer a wound that, without hospital treatment, would be fatal. But, it's better than nothing! And, that's what survivability is about. It's cutting your losses, and taking your chances on combat as a means to just barely get you through the event.

You're absolutely right. Modern day instructors don't often emphasise the gravity of the situation that we're training for. That's why I tell people to "train, train, train." Any little thing you can do to increase your survivability is better than nothing.

[AirForceShooter]

first time I did it as part of my USAF training I passed on my back shooting between my knees.
I thought I was in for one of those yelling in your face moments followed by drop and give me 50.
Instructor told me "if it works you pass.

AFS

[Skyguy]

Modern day instructors don't often emphasise the gravity of the situation that we're training for. That's why I tell people to "train, train, train." Any little thing you can do to increase your survivability is better than nothing.

You're right and I agree....for those who are SD 'students'.

But, most folks aren't in training. Don't know combatives. They just need to know the basics of survival from attack.
They could be untrained, old or physically impaired. And that's why they should know the tactics of awareness, avoidance, disengage, distance, cover/obstacles.

The 21ft drill is just a learning tool that should convince most folks that if they have a gun they should learn early draw. (another thing poor instructors fail to teach....merely to cover their own butts)

Injury/death is part of a fight.
Everyone should fight for their life, but only as their last resort.
.

[stevelyn]

Model520fan,

You are mostly right about the knife attack. A determined, premeditated knife attacker is going to close the distance on you before unleashing his attack or intentions and in all probability disappear before you know what happened.


The 21 ft rule as stated in a previous post is a learning tool to show that even when you know your opponent has a knife, he is still capable of rearranging your medical records if you don't act fast enough with gaining distance and a counter-attack.

I couldn't agree more with your comments about staying away from dangerous areas, situational awareness, and watching peoples hands.

[stephen426]

Skyguy,

While I am not saying that everyone should attempt to use martial arts against a knife weilding attacker, I sure as heck don't advocate rolling over and dying either. If running is an option, then of course you should run. If you are not a fast runner or if you have a physical disability, then you should fight. I know that an attacker armed with a knife is dangerous. I also know that if someone is already at a run and closing in on me from a distance of 21 feet or less, then he already has a head start. I feel that we should train for these scenarios and that we could all benefit from some hand to hand training. Even if we never use it, at least we get some exercise out of it.

[M14fan]

I still like my walking stick. Not only can I carry it anywhere (even airlines) it can both deflect the knife attack and 'de-fang' the attacker. Defanging being the art of attacking the limb wielding the weapon. In most situations where a firearm is not the attacking weapon and my own firearm is not already drawn, I believe in judicious use of the walking stick.

And to answer the poll question, No I cannot draw and fire accurately in the time a determined attacker can cover 21 feet.

[Skyguy]

I still like my walking stick. Not only can I carry it anywhere (even airlines) it can both deflect the knife attack and 'de-fang' the attacker. Defanging being the art of attacking the limb wielding the weapon. In most situations where a firearm is not the attacking weapon and my own firearm is not already drawn, I believe in judicious use of the walking stick.

The walking stick/cane is a formidable weapon and hard to overcome when used by even a novice. Don't mess with a walking stick or you could get your arms or legs broken.

Canes/walking sticks create distance and are an obstacle.
They can 'stab' and 'cut' and 'sweep' and crack your skull. They're a very, very good weapon and are socially acceptable.

I see many older guys carrying a walking stick and I assume that they have it for reasons beyond support. :)
.

[M14fan]

Fortunately I can carry my stick anywhere had have the scars to prove its necessity. Fortunately those scars to not inhibit normal walking, moving, standing activities (a very good thing since 95% of my job involves these things) without the stick.
Unfortunately these scars do prohibit my ability to run which means that my responses to such threats as the knife-wielding attacker are necessarily directed at inflicting maximum damage as I cannot deflect and run away.
Fortunately, I build my own walking sticks and they are more than up to the task of support and defense.