black powder question?

zip · January 11, 2000, 07:17 AM

not realy sure if this goes here but have any of you used any of the .44 1851 navy / confederet navy type pistols
im looking at one just to play with ect

------------------
oneshotonekill

Joe West · January 11, 2000, 12:40 PM

Zip,
I used one in .36 when I started. No .44 cal 1851 versions existed until modern repros came along. No reason not to use one however. If you're talking about either the brass or steel framed version, I had good luck with both holding together. But bad luck with reliable match use. A lot of cap fragment jamming. I went to 1960's era repros of 1860 Colts from Belgium [ called Centennials] till I wore them out pretty good. I need to rebuild them when I have time, they're better than real Colts to me.
Then I started using the Pietta '58 Remington copies from Cabelas. After some judicious gunsmithing and hardening of parts, I've got very dependable guns.
I first switched to .44s because matches used to have a lot of knockdowns. Funny that we used to have to police the overly heavy loads!
Joe West

zip · January 11, 2000, 01:00 PM

another question dose any body make a bp deringer either a single/double bbl.,or small revolver

------------------
oneshotonekill

[This message has been edited by zip (edited January 11, 2000).]

Trigger Jerk · January 12, 2000, 12:34 PM

There are a few companies that make derringers that are suitable for CAS. To answer your question about a black powder derringer... the answer is that any derringer made for smokeless powder will also handle black powder cartridges. Or course you will have to load your own black powder cartridges. I shoot smokeless in the main matches but for pocket pistols and derringers I shoot black powder.
Davis makes inexspensive derringers from 22 lr to 38 special. There work great for CAS.

As for the small revolver...you are talking about a pocket pistol? If so these are small caliber (32 & 38) break top original pistols of various makes. No one today makes a replica pocket pistol. They are usually reserved for side matches, but not always. You should be able to pick up a servicable one for less than $100. Gun shows are great places to find these little pistols.

Bill Mitchell · January 12, 2000, 05:22 PM

Zip,

Armi San Marco make a small pocket Remington 5-shot revolver. This is a C&B,5-shot pistol. I got mine from Bass Pro Shop. I think CVA sells them. Uberti makes a baby Dragoon-a .31 caliber small frame revolver. CVA also makes a single shot BP derringer. Get a Dixie Gun Works catalog-they have several BP derringers and small frame revolvers for sale.

Bellicose Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Mitchell (edited January 12, 2000).]

**Bud Helms** · January 17, 2000, 07:29 AM

Zip,

North American Arms Corp has a .22 cal cap & ball revolver. See NAA Companion .

49711 · October 13, 2009, 05:16 PM

I have a 45 caliber hawken I picked up after finaly watching the movie Jeramiah Johnson one to many times.It says Charles Daly but has and I satamped on the barrel with made in Italy Beside it. From what I have head this means it was made by Investarms. The problem is I have no Ideah how much powder is safe to load. I am trying to find a good white tail load and I will be using patched round balls can anyone point me in the right direction.

Hawg · October 13, 2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

not realy sure if this goes here but have any of you used any of the .44 1851 navy / confederet navy type pistols
im looking at one just to play with ect

Keep loads to 25 grs. or less and it should be ok. Just watch the recoil shield where the cylinder hits it and if it starts showing any signs of imprinting the cylinder ratchet reduce your loads.

Quote:

another question dose any body make a bp deringer either a single/double bbl.,or small revolver

DGW sells several different muzzleloading derringer kits from Classic Arms. I have the Twister which is an over/under. I got it when they were still selling them as complete guns and it's a POS.

Quote:

I have a 45 caliber hawken I picked up after finaly watching the movie Jeramiah Johnson one to many times.It says Charles Daly but has and I satamped on the barrel with made in Italy Beside it. From what I have head this means it was made by Investarms. The problem is I have no Ideah how much powder is safe to load. I am trying to find a good white tail load and I will be using patched round balls can anyone point me in the right direction.

75-90 grs. depending on what your rifle likes. It takes some work to work up a round ball/patch combo that works but worth the effort when you get it.

pvt.Long · October 13, 2009, 11:08 PM

the 44 was not navy its the army cal For navy I would go for a 36 or the 31. If you want something not seen every day get a duckfoot or a pepper box.

Hawg · October 14, 2009, 04:03 AM

Quote:

the 44 was not navy its the army cal

He's talking about the brass framed Pietta 51 in .44 they call the Confederate Navy which didn't exist.

madcratebuilder · October 14, 2009, 09:03 AM

Quote:

another question dose any body make a bp deringer either a single/double bbl.,or small revolver

There are a lot of different replicas of the Colt pocket pistols in .31 and .36. Baby Dragoon, Wells Fargo, 49 pocket, 62 police pocket, 62 pocket Navy, Trapper model.

Noz · October 14, 2009, 09:27 AM

According to the usage of the era: Navy referred to a belt pistol of 36 caliber. The ones colt made had the same grip as the current Colt Peacemakers/1873s.
The designation Army was for belt pistols of 44 cal. The Army has a larger grip so that the heavy recoil of the 44 caliber gun could be more easily handled.
I believe there is one factory gun that is in a museum somewhere that is a 44 cal with Navy frame and grips.
Also Colt did not make any brass framed guns.

grymster2007 · October 14, 2009, 10:18 AM

Quote:

another question dose any body make a bp deringer either a single/double bbl.,or small revolver

Quote:

There are a lot of different replicas of the Colt pocket pistols in .31 and .36. Baby Dragoon, Wells Fargo, 49 pocket, 62 police pocket, 62 pocket Navy, Trapper model.

As madcratebuilder pointed out there are a number of small BP revolvers. I have the '63 Pocket Remington (.31) and it is a very small revolver. Not as small as the NAA, but about as small as my big mitts can handle.

Hawg · October 14, 2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

According to the usage of the era: Navy referred to a belt pistol of 36 caliber. The ones colt made had the same grip as the current Colt Peacemakers/1873s.
The designation Army was for belt pistols of 44 cal. The Army has a larger grip so that the heavy recoil of the 44 caliber gun could be more easily handled.

This is all true but tell that to Pietta.

madcratebuilder · October 14, 2009, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Also Colt did not make any brass framed guns.

No, but thare are many CSA period Colt clones with brass frames, Griswold&Gunnison, Schneider&Glassick. I think the Leech&Rigdon had both brass and iron. The Whitney clone, Spiller&burr.

SigP6Carry · October 14, 2009, 03:01 PM

why is it that 1/2 of all threads regarding the Pietta 1851 Navy in .44 degrades into an argument about how inaccurate (historically) they are.

I've got one myself, never fired it, though. BP shooting is a bit out of my price range right now, but it's a fine gun. I've talked to a few folks about their BP revolvers and it seems that the Pietta brass frame holds up well with lower volume loads. You're not going to get the power and force of a good steel frame, but it'll work for a starter.

If you want something with a bit more kick or power: I'd suggest going with an 1861 Army or Remington 1858 copy. Both of them are only a bit more expensive than the 1851 brass navy copy, but are built tougher and last longer when you fire it with full loads.

TomADC · October 14, 2009, 03:49 PM

I have one NIB $120 plus shipping.. PM if interested.
Actually it a EMF 1851 Navy brass frame 44 cal.

Hawg · October 14, 2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:

why is it that 1/2 of all threads regarding the Pietta 1851 Navy in .44 degrades into an argument about how inaccurate (historically) they are.

Because it irks some of us and we feel we have to put the record straight.

SigP6Carry · October 15, 2009, 12:09 PM

but nobody comes on here saying that it's an accurately made weapon. They simply call it by the name "Pietta 1851 Navy .44" and yes, the name itself is an oxymoron, but it's simply what the company calls it. I'm thinking that to avoid thread hijacking about anachronistic weapons we should start calling it "the not true to real life Pietta 1851 Navy that is in .44 rather than .36 like they were in real life."

Hawg · October 15, 2009, 12:28 PM

Quote:

I'm thinking that to avoid thread hijacking about anachronistic weapons we should start calling it "the not true to real life Pietta 1851 Navy that is in .44 rather than .36 like they were in real life."

Works for me

Except you left out the brass frame part.

arcticap · October 15, 2009, 12:38 PM

And the poster zip was last active on thefiringline almost 10 years ago....

Quote:

Last Activity: November 17, 2000 03:09 AM

Smokin_Gun · October 15, 2009, 12:49 PM

Nine years after and still it goes on ... HeeHee! :O)
Face it the 1851 Pietta brass or steel frame .44 is a real revolver ... has not been disproved to have ever existed as a prototype , experimental model, or an aftermarket modification... NO Records they burned ...
Anyway the South made Brass framed Revs and .44's along with .36 cal so without too much of a stretch of the imagination the Brass or Steel Navy in ..36 or .44 is a replica or call it an original :O)
I like the 1851 Colt Navy in .44 cause I like the Navy feel but I like a .44 boolit ...

Hawg · October 15, 2009, 12:51 PM

Quote:

And the poster zip was last active on thefiringline almost 10 years ago....

Man you caught that quick but at least you caught it.

October 13, 2009, 05:16 PM	#7
49711 Junior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Posts: 5	new to black powder-need help with Hawken I have a 45 caliber hawken I picked up after finaly watching the movie Jeramiah Johnson one to many times.It says Charles Daly but has and I satamped on the barrel with made in Italy Beside it. From what I have head this means it was made by Investarms. The problem is I have no Ideah how much powder is safe to load. I am trying to find a good white tail load and I will be using patched round balls can anyone point me in the right direction.

October 14, 2009, 03:01 PM	#16
SigP6Carry Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2009 Posts: 1,086	why is it that 1/2 of all threads regarding the Pietta 1851 Navy in .44 degrades into an argument about how inaccurate (historically) they are. I've got one myself, never fired it, though. BP shooting is a bit out of my price range right now, but it's a fine gun. I've talked to a few folks about their BP revolvers and it seems that the Pietta brass frame holds up well with lower volume loads. You're not going to get the power and force of a good steel frame, but it'll work for a starter. If you want something with a bit more kick or power: I'd suggest going with an 1861 Army or Remington 1858 copy. Both of them are only a bit more expensive than the 1851 brass navy copy, but are built tougher and last longer when you fire it with full loads. __________________ -liberal gun nut = exception to the rule- -1.24274238 miles, because Russians don't need scopes- -Gun control was the Klan's favorite law, how can you advocate a set of laws designed to allow the denigration of a people?-

October 14, 2009, 03:49 PM	#17
TomADC Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: San Diego County Posts: 795	I have one NIB $120 plus shipping.. PM if interested. Actually it a EMF 1851 Navy brass frame 44 cal. Last edited by TomADC; October 14, 2009 at 03:55 PM.

October 15, 2009, 12:09 PM	#19
SigP6Carry Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2009 Posts: 1,086	but nobody comes on here saying that it's an accurately made weapon. They simply call it by the name "Pietta 1851 Navy .44" and yes, the name itself is an oxymoron, but it's simply what the company calls it. I'm thinking that to avoid thread hijacking about anachronistic weapons we should start calling it "the not true to real life Pietta 1851 Navy that is in .44 rather than .36 like they were in real life." __________________ -liberal gun nut = exception to the rule- -1.24274238 miles, because Russians don't need scopes- -Gun control was the Klan's favorite law, how can you advocate a set of laws designed to allow the denigration of a people?-

October 15, 2009, 12:49 PM	#22
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	Nine years after and still it goes on ... HeeHee! :O) Face it the 1851 Pietta brass or steel frame .44 is a real revolver ... has not been disproved to have ever existed as a prototype , experimental model, or an aftermarket modification... NO Records they burned ... Anyway the South made Brass framed Revs and .44's along with .36 cal so without too much of a stretch of the imagination the Brass or Steel Navy in ..36 or .44 is a replica or call it an original :O) I like the 1851 Colt Navy in .44 cause I like the Navy feel but I like a .44 boolit ... __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

January 11, 2000, 07:17 AM	#1
zip Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 1999 Posts: 207	not realy sure if this goes here but have any of you used any of the .44 1851 navy / confederet navy type pistols im looking at one just to play with ect ------------------ oneshotonekill

January 11, 2000, 12:40 PM	#2
Joe West Member Join Date: November 29, 1999 Posts: 41	Zip, I used one in .36 when I started. No .44 cal 1851 versions existed until modern repros came along. No reason not to use one however. If you're talking about either the brass or steel framed version, I had good luck with both holding together. But bad luck with reliable match use. A lot of cap fragment jamming. I went to 1960's era repros of 1860 Colts from Belgium [ called Centennials] till I wore them out pretty good. I need to rebuild them when I have time, they're better than real Colts to me. Then I started using the Pietta '58 Remington copies from Cabelas. After some judicious gunsmithing and hardening of parts, I've got very dependable guns. I first switched to .44s because matches used to have a lot of knockdowns. Funny that we used to have to police the overly heavy loads! Joe West

January 11, 2000, 01:00 PM	#3
zip Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 1999 Posts: 207	another question dose any body make a bp deringer either a single/double bbl.,or small revolver ------------------ oneshotonekill [This message has been edited by zip (edited January 11, 2000).]

January 12, 2000, 12:34 PM	#4
Trigger Jerk Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Eastern WA Posts: 136	There are a few companies that make derringers that are suitable for CAS. To answer your question about a black powder derringer... the answer is that any derringer made for smokeless powder will also handle black powder cartridges. Or course you will have to load your own black powder cartridges. I shoot smokeless in the main matches but for pocket pistols and derringers I shoot black powder. Davis makes inexspensive derringers from 22 lr to 38 special. There work great for CAS. As for the small revolver...you are talking about a pocket pistol? If so these are small caliber (32 & 38) break top original pistols of various makes. No one today makes a replica pocket pistol. They are usually reserved for side matches, but not always. You should be able to pick up a servicable one for less than $100. Gun shows are great places to find these little pistols.

January 12, 2000, 05:22 PM	#5
Bill Mitchell Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Roswell,GA Posts: 433	Zip, Armi San Marco make a small pocket Remington 5-shot revolver. This is a C&B,5-shot pistol. I got mine from Bass Pro Shop. I think CVA sells them. Uberti makes a baby Dragoon-a .31 caliber small frame revolver. CVA also makes a single shot BP derringer. Get a Dixie Gun Works catalog-they have several BP derringers and small frame revolvers for sale. Bellicose Bill [This message has been edited by Bill Mitchell (edited January 12, 2000).]

January 17, 2000, 07:29 AM	#6
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Zip, North American Arms Corp has a .22 cal cap & ball revolver. See NAA Companion .

October 13, 2009, 11:08 PM	#9
pvt.Long Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2009 Posts: 433	the 44 was not navy its the army cal For navy I would go for a 36 or the 31. If you want something not seen every day get a duckfoot or a pepper box.

October 14, 2009, 09:27 AM	#12
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	According to the usage of the era: Navy referred to a belt pistol of 36 caliber. The ones colt made had the same grip as the current Colt Peacemakers/1873s. The designation Army was for belt pistols of 44 cal. The Army has a larger grip so that the heavy recoil of the 44 caliber gun could be more easily handled. I believe there is one factory gun that is in a museum somewhere that is a 44 cal with Navy frame and grips. Also Colt did not make any brass framed guns.