crimp?

cajun47 · August 3, 2013, 10:25 AM

i reloaded some 9mm decades ago and i don't think i used a crimp. then recently i reloaded some .44 mag and i find out about crimp but i ignored it. those rounds where very inaccurate.

why crimp some rounds and not others?

mikld · August 3, 2013, 01:54 PM

Revolver ammo is usually roll crimped to keep bullets in place during recoil. In some applications a sturdy crimp aids in powder ignition, giving more consistent burning. Some bullets without a cannalure or crimp groove are used so a taper crimp, or profile crimp is used. A moderate to heavy crimp usually improves accuracy in heavy recoiling guns by keeping bullet at same seated depth consistently, and a little bit of "resistance" for a complete, more consistent burn.

Semi-auto ammo should not be crimped. A taper crimp die is used only to straighten ("de-flare") the case mouth. Neck tension should be sufficient to keep bullets in place during feeding and recoil, and a flat case mouth (not crimped smaller in diameter) for head spacing...

Mike / Tx · August 4, 2013, 05:15 AM

As mentioned the crimp is usually used to A) remove the flare on the mouth of an auto feeding pistol round, or B) to aid in bullet slippage in revolver and semi, or auto feeding rifles.

For most auto pistol loads the taper crimp is used and it is usually simply set in a fashion to remove any bell you might have made on the case mouth to aid in seating the bullets. For revolver rounds it has the additional purpose of holding the bullets under recoil to prevent them from moving forward under the recoil of the previously fired round. To some extent the amount that you use can and does play a role in accuracy. There is a fine line between not enough and too much.

Here is a thread which has some excellent pictures showing some of them all,
Crimps

Hope this helps.

WESHOOT2 · August 4, 2013, 07:11 AM

I crimp virtually every 'revolver' cartridge using the superior Redding Profile Crimp Die.

I crimp virtually every 'autoloader' cartridge using the proven LEE Carbide Factory Crimp Die.

dahermit · August 4, 2013, 07:20 AM

Quote:

I crimp virtually every 'autoloader' cartridge using the proven LEE Carbide Factory Crimp Die.

If you mean by "proven", that it has been proven to post-size your bullets making them undersized for the bore as well as assuring that the cartridges will chamber, then I would say that is true.
Many of us, especially bullet casters, have knocked the carbide ring from the die and just use it as a dedicated crimp-die. The Lee rifle factory crimp die however, is an excellent device/product.

WESHOOT2 · August 4, 2013, 07:26 AM

I meant "Proven by the customer feedback from the many thousands of cartridges I made and sold used in many hundreds of guns".

That kind of "proven". The kind of proof found from reliable function and consistent accuracy.
Ay?

dahermit · August 4, 2013, 10:18 AM

Quote:

I meant "Proven by the customer feedback from the many thousands of cartridges I made and sold used in many hundreds of guns".

Non squirter -- [logical]fallacy, this is claiming A implies B when it doesn't. A= no complaints. B= Ammo is without fault.

Quote:

That kind of "proven". The kind of proof found from reliable function and consistent accuracy.
Ay?

Or, you could just load a cartridge with a cast bullet, (for example one sized to .356), run it though the Lee Factory Crimp Die, pull the bullet and measure it again...see what you find. Here's hope'en that your gun likes under-size bullets.
As for no customer complaints, Pigs will eat anything you put in the trough, and never complain about the food...that lack of complaint does not make it "good food" though.

mikld · August 4, 2013, 11:31 AM

Quote:

As for no customer complaints, Pigs will eat anything you put in the trough, and never complain about the food...that lack of complaint does not make it "good food" though.

He-he, good example. I also think that seasoned, experienced reloaders also know what the "post seating, sizing die" has no value when dies are correctly adjusted. Consider all the ammo reloaded prior to Lee's introduction of their FCD, mega-bazillions of safe, correctly sized, shootable,accurate ammo...

Shootest · August 4, 2013, 12:10 PM

If the man wants to use the FCD let him, since if you don’t, know one is making you. I find the ring doesn’t even touch my JHP rounds but the die sure puts a nice crimp on them. After all he didn’t say he was using oversized cast boolits.

buck460XVR · August 4, 2013, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shootest:

If the man wants to use the FCD let him

I gotta agree. Any experienced reloader knows we all have our little tricks, nuances and preferences. What works for one, may or may not work for another. While the use of the Lee FCD is about as argumentative as any subject on the internet, some folks do like it. If it ain't no skin off anyone else's back, what's the problem? Shooting well , like riding motorcycle well, is very dependent on one's confidence. If using the FCD gives a shooter more confidence in his ammo, that in itself is worth the small price of a Lee die.

dahermit · August 4, 2013, 12:59 PM

Quote:

If the man wants to use the FCD let him, since if you don’t, know one is making you.

Please point out where I told him he could not or should not use it. I just posted additional information...take it or leave it.

Quote:

After all he didn’t say he was using oversized cast boolits.

No one referred to oversize cast bullets. .356 is the nominal diameter for 9MM. The problem with the carbide ring sizing the bullets down, is well-know among hand loaders, and removing the ring while keeping the die for a separate crimping station is also a common practice.

dahermit · August 4, 2013, 01:11 PM

Quote:

what's the problem? Shooting well , like riding motorcycle well, is very dependent on one's confidence. If using the FCD gives a shooter more confidence in his ammo, that in itself is worth the small price of a Lee die.

You seemed to have missed the point completely. The FCD indeed can instill confidence that the rounds will load into the chamber, but it also produces (in my experience and that of many others), under-size bullets. For instance a .356 diameter bullet will become a .354 bullet when run through the FCD. How well do under size-bullets shoot for you?
Other than that, I challenge your statement that "shooting or anything else is dependent upon one's confidence". I may be very confident that I can ride a bare-back bucking horse, but being over-weight, old, and not having ridden a horse in more than 30 years, it is not likely...despite my "confidence" induced by bottled spirits or not.

buck460XVR · August 4, 2013, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dahermit:

You seemed to have missed the point completely. The FCD indeed can instill confidence that the rounds will load into the chamber, but it also produces (in my experience and that of many others), under-size bullets. For instance a .356 diameter bullet will become a .354 bullet when run through the FCD. How well do under size-bullets shoot for you?
Other than that, I challenge your statement that "shooting or anything else is dependent upon one's confidence". I may be very confident that I can ride a bare-back bucking horse, but being over-weight, old, and not having ridden a horse in more than 30 years, it is not likely...despite my "confidence" induced by bottled spirits or not.

I don't use the FCD, nor do I use undersized bullets so I have no idea how they shoot. But I have no problem with other folks using the FCD if it produces for them, better ammo than without it. Not a big deal.

As for your challenge, you edited out a important part of my statement.....the word "well". While confidence may motivate a fat, inexperienced old man to embarrass himself riding a horse, the idea that he would actually think he could do it well, says something for his lack of intelligence. Take a professional or experienced shooter/rider tho and having confidence in his abilities and equipment can make the difference between first and last in competition. Why is it an experienced hunter that has missed a shot is always leery of their next shot? Maybe a little less confidence in his abilities and equipment?

steve4102 · August 4, 2013, 02:32 PM

I use the Lee Factory Crimp die for all my semi-auto handgun ammo. I also use it with my Lead bullets.
I have yet to find any of my 45 ACP cast .452 lead bullets sized, under-sized or swaged down. The LFCD carbide ring contacts the mouth flare ever so slightly, but makes Zero contact with the case body. It is impossible to post size a bullet it the carbide ring does not contact the case.

They also shoot pretty good with zero leading.
DW 45 ACP 25 yards rested. 200gr Lee LSWC, 7.2gr True Blue.
That's a one inch black dot.

dahermit · August 4, 2013, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Why is it an experienced hunter that has missed a shot is always leery of their next shot? Maybe a little less confidence in his abilities and equipment?

Maybe...or maybe not. Confidence may be a negative factor also. But if it be "always" as you state, you should be able to prove it with ease.
In the meantime, I just would like to point out that the handgun Lee FCD has in some cases, shown to reduce the size of the loaded bullets as well as well as perform a crimp. Inasmuch as I prefer to do my cast-bullet sizing with a Lyman 450, before they are loaded, I have knocked the carbide ring from my FCD and use it for crimping only. The Sizing die of the set and the FCD sans carbide ring have produced ammo that chambers and fires just fine. As posted by another, we have used standard dies for many years to produce good, functional ammunition without having to guild the lily...and possibly induce other problems.

reynolds357 · August 4, 2013, 08:52 PM

I crimp everything I shoot in a handgun except my Contender and my bolt action hand guns. See how quick you can jam up a revolver shooting un-crimped. Usually an autoloader will function without a crimp, but its just not very accurate. You will lock a revolver down. Its funny. I have watched several people dealing with that problem.

WESHOOT2 · August 5, 2013, 06:46 AM

Quote:

As for no customer complaints, Pigs will eat anything you put in the trough, and never complain about the food...that lack of complaint does not make it "good food" though.

You must be a real joy in person; I notice you follow my posts with negative comments.
Were we business competitors in the ultra-high-end custom ammunition manufacturing business?
Did someone I helped start their own ammo business crush one you were starting?

Folks never bought my ammo just for shooting in the backyard; it was entirely too expensive (and I wouldn't take the order, as I didn't make 'just shootin' ammo).

So I guess I'm upset with your comment mostly because you disrespect the customers who sought me out and payed an unbelievably high premium to acquire my custom-for-them ammo.

I mean, you do know I operated a handgun-ammo-only custom-order-only specific-need-only manufacturing business?

dahermit · August 5, 2013, 08:21 AM

This thread has gotten too emotional...I am out. Your last post should have been a private message.

reynolds357 · August 5, 2013, 10:29 AM

I think yall are hilarious. It seems that in the shooting world there are only two ways to do anything, "my way and the wrong way." You can exchange information without being upset that the person you gave the information to does not become your disciple.
There is a huge difference between stating an opinion on the internet and showing up at my shop and trying to kick me out of it and run it your way. The first I pay no attention to. The latter, I would get mad and kick you out.

mikld · August 5, 2013, 11:00 AM

My major concern isn't with those who choose to use an FCD, but it's with those that recommend an FCD to a new reloader. It's like saying "don't learn to do it right, just cover it up with this tool"...

I didn't take the "pigs" post to be anything other than a "country" saying, not an insult. Kinda like "'Till the cows come home", or "Madder than a wet hen", or "... like a possum eating poop".

reynolds357 · August 5, 2013, 12:06 PM

I do not use the factory crimp die, but I do not view it as a short cut or as a means to cover up a poor reload. I have used them in the past. I have some of them. I really do not see them as anything other than "a different way to do something." Not better, not worse, just different.

steve4102 · August 5, 2013, 12:56 PM

Quote:

My major concern isn't with those who choose to use an FCD, but it's with those that recommend an FCD to a new reloader. It's like saying "don't learn to do it right, just cover it up with this tool"...

Cover up what?
I read this all the time, those claiming the LFCD fixes F-ups, what F-ups?

Loading for handgun ammo is about as simple and fool proof as it can get.

1) Clean Brass.

2) Set carbide sizing die to just contact the shell holder.

3) Run the brass through the sizing die.

4) Set up the expander die to flare the case mouth just enough to hold the bullet and not shave lead or copper off the bullet.

5) Run all sized cases through the expander die.

6) Charge the case with powder.

7) Set up the seating die.

8) Set the bullets to desired OAL.

9) Run loaded ammo through the LFCD to apply a taper crimp.

What in this SIMPLE process is the LFCD going to correct? Nothing, nothing that would be the fault of the handloader. You guys make it sound like this is some kind Rocket Science and building a round that will chamber and fire requires talent and special techniques.
It doesn't, size it, flare it, charge it, seat it, DONE. Nothing hard and nothing special.

reynolds357 · August 5, 2013, 03:15 PM

Its rocket science. Cant possibly be that simple.

Must complicate it, we must.

Stuey · August 5, 2013, 04:11 PM

Well said steve4102...

Old Stony · August 5, 2013, 05:06 PM

Getting a little emotional could be justified in this thread. I agree about the "my way or the right way" theory here. Lee sells thousands of the FC dies and I doubt they all work to turn out defective innacurate ammo.
I have used the dies for years in various calibers to try for consistency in the crimp. I think if a person adjusts them properly they do the intended job without a problem.
Maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about though and have shot a lot of inferior ammo over the years.

August 3, 2013, 10:25 AM	#1
cajun47 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: swamp people Posts: 539	crimp? i reloaded some 9mm decades ago and i don't think i used a crimp. then recently i reloaded some .44 mag and i find out about crimp but i ignored it. those rounds where very inaccurate. why crimp some rounds and not others?

August 3, 2013, 01:54 PM	#2
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Revolver ammo is usually roll crimped to keep bullets in place during recoil. In some applications a sturdy crimp aids in powder ignition, giving more consistent burning. Some bullets without a cannalure or crimp groove are used so a taper crimp, or profile crimp is used. A moderate to heavy crimp usually improves accuracy in heavy recoiling guns by keeping bullet at same seated depth consistently, and a little bit of "resistance" for a complete, more consistent burn. Semi-auto ammo should not be crimped. A taper crimp die is used only to straighten ("de-flare") the case mouth. Neck tension should be sufficient to keep bullets in place during feeding and recoil, and a flat case mouth (not crimped smaller in diameter) for head spacing... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

August 4, 2013, 05:15 AM	#3
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	As mentioned the crimp is usually used to A) remove the flare on the mouth of an auto feeding pistol round, or B) to aid in bullet slippage in revolver and semi, or auto feeding rifles. For most auto pistol loads the taper crimp is used and it is usually simply set in a fashion to remove any bell you might have made on the case mouth to aid in seating the bullets. For revolver rounds it has the additional purpose of holding the bullets under recoil to prevent them from moving forward under the recoil of the previously fired round. To some extent the amount that you use can and does play a role in accuracy. There is a fine line between not enough and too much. Here is a thread which has some excellent pictures showing some of them all, Crimps Hope this helps. __________________ LAter, Mike / TX

August 4, 2013, 07:11 AM	#4
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	what I learned since 1976 I crimp virtually every 'revolver' cartridge using the superior Redding Profile Crimp Die. I crimp virtually every 'autoloader' cartridge using the proven LEE Carbide Factory Crimp Die. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

August 4, 2013, 07:26 AM	#6
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	specifically what I meant by "proven" I meant "Proven by the customer feedback from the many thousands of cartridges I made and sold used in many hundreds of guns". That kind of "proven". The kind of proof found from reliable function and consistent accuracy. Ay? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

August 4, 2013, 12:10 PM	#9
Shootest Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2011 Location: Just outside Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 722	If the man wants to use the FCD let him, since if you don’t, know one is making you. I find the ring doesn’t even touch my JHP rounds but the die sure puts a nice crimp on them. After all he didn’t say he was using oversized cast boolits. __________________ The private ownership of firearms is an American Heritage. Anyone who disputes that is Anti-American and unpatriotic. NRA Life Member

August 4, 2013, 02:32 PM	#14
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	I use the Lee Factory Crimp die for all my semi-auto handgun ammo. I also use it with my Lead bullets. I have yet to find any of my 45 ACP cast .452 lead bullets sized, under-sized or swaged down. The LFCD carbide ring contacts the mouth flare ever so slightly, but makes Zero contact with the case body. It is impossible to post size a bullet it the carbide ring does not contact the case. They also shoot pretty good with zero leading. DW 45 ACP 25 yards rested. 200gr Lee LSWC, 7.2gr True Blue. That's a one inch black dot.

August 4, 2013, 08:52 PM	#16
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I crimp everything I shoot in a handgun except my Contender and my bolt action hand guns. See how quick you can jam up a revolver shooting un-crimped. Usually an autoloader will function without a crimp, but its just not very accurate. You will lock a revolver down. Its funny. I have watched several people dealing with that problem. Last edited by reynolds357; August 5, 2013 at 10:27 AM.

August 5, 2013, 08:21 AM	#18
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	This thread has gotten too emotional...I am out. Your last post should have been a private message. Last edited by dahermit; August 5, 2013 at 08:38 AM.

August 5, 2013, 10:29 AM	#19
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I think yall are hilarious. It seems that in the shooting world there are only two ways to do anything, "my way and the wrong way." You can exchange information without being upset that the person you gave the information to does not become your disciple. There is a huge difference between stating an opinion on the internet and showing up at my shop and trying to kick me out of it and run it your way. The first I pay no attention to. The latter, I would get mad and kick you out.

August 5, 2013, 11:00 AM	#20
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	My major concern isn't with those who choose to use an FCD, but it's with those that recommend an FCD to a new reloader. It's like saying "don't learn to do it right, just cover it up with this tool"... I didn't take the "pigs" post to be anything other than a "country" saying, not an insult. Kinda like "'Till the cows come home", or "Madder than a wet hen", or "... like a possum eating poop". __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees... Last edited by mikld; August 5, 2013 at 11:07 AM.

August 5, 2013, 12:06 PM	#21
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I do not use the factory crimp die, but I do not view it as a short cut or as a means to cover up a poor reload. I have used them in the past. I have some of them. I really do not see them as anything other than "a different way to do something." Not better, not worse, just different.

August 5, 2013, 03:15 PM	#23
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Its rocket science. Cant possibly be that simple. Must complicate it, we must.

August 5, 2013, 04:11 PM	#24
Stuey Junior Member Join Date: June 29, 2013 Location: Maumelle, AR Posts: 6	Well said steve4102...

August 5, 2013, 05:06 PM	#25
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	Getting a little emotional could be justified in this thread. I agree about the "my way or the right way" theory here. Lee sells thousands of the FC dies and I doubt they all work to turn out defective innacurate ammo. I have used the dies for years in various calibers to try for consistency in the crimp. I think if a person adjusts them properly they do the intended job without a problem. Maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about though and have shot a lot of inferior ammo over the years.