Universal or Universal Clays?

[aerod1]

I use Universal Clays (made by Hogdon)for reloading shotshells and a friend told me there was also a powder called Universal. I sometimes refer to Universal Clays as Universal. I have looked for the "Universal" and can't find it. Is there a difference and where can I find info on it?
BTW I also load rifle and pistol as well so I am looking at that also.
Thanks,

Jim

[FlyFish]

I'm not aware of any powder simply named Universal either, but the naming confusion doesn't end there. Hodgdon actually makes 3 similarly named powders: Clays, International Clays, and Universal Clays. You're not the only one who's confused about which is which.

Given the potential for confusion, and the liabilities for manufacturers in today's litigious society, it remains a mystery to me why Hodgdon insists on doing this. For myself, I do everything I can to minimize the potential for errors in my reloading. Part of that is refusing to use any of the "Clays" powders.

[Sport45]

I don't find it to be so confusing. No different than the "dot" powders in any case.

And yes, "Universal" is Hodgdon's Universal Clays and it is a good all-around handgun powder. It meters better than Unique and fills the same niche.

[mikld]

The labels I've seen say "Clays", "International Clays", and "Universal Clays". Pretty straight forward, in written form. The only confusion I could possibly see is word of mouth descriptions. But, I don't usually (NEVER) take anybody's word of mouth reloading data (gotta see it in print, and from more than one refrence). Universal is close to Unique in pistol loads, but don't take my word for it!

[wxl]

all 3 are great shotgun and pistol powders

Made by ADI in Australia for Hodgdon

[GP100man]

& all three are clean burnin mid to upper loads.


GP100man

[SKULLANDCROSSBONES65]

G'day. This is from the SIERRA manual. 5 th Edition.

(Universal Clays should not be confused with Hodgdon’s Clays, or International Clays. These three powders are different and should not be interchanged.)

A few pages on.

*(In manuals or writings published before 1973, any mention of 4831 will refer to Hodgdon’s H4831. In older manuals, it was customary to list the powder simply as A4831” with no designation connecting it to the Hodgdon line. The reason for this is simple; prior to DuPont’s introduction of IMR 4831 in 1972, the surplus 4831 sold by Hodgdon was the only powder to carry this designation. Despite their similar nomenclature, these two powders (IMR 4831 and Hodgdon 4831) are not interchangeable and must not be confused. IMR 4831 is significantly faster burning than H4831, and may produce dangerous pressures if used with data developed for the latter.)

Both of these quotes are in the powder burn rate charts.

For your information. Here is a list of powders made in Australia and sold in the USA under the Hodgdon brand.

ADI Powder/Hodgdon naming
AS30N.................Clays
Trail Boss.............Trial Boss
AS50N.................International
AP70N.................Universal
AR2205...............H4227
AR2207...............H4198
AR2219...............H322
BM2....................Benchmark
AR2206H.............H4895
AR2208...............Varget
AR2209...............H4350
AR2213SC...........H4831 / H4831SC
AR2217...............H1000
AR2225...............Retumbo
AR2218...............H50BMG

For more details on the ADI / Hodgdon powder look at this thread.

[rc]

plain jane "clays" is a fast burning powder like red dot, bullseye etc. It works well at .45 ACP pressures. "Universal Clays" is a different animal. It's a smaller yellow flake rather than larger grey flake. It's more in the category of Unique. It works very well in 9mm and 40 S&W. rc

[Uncle Buck]

Confusing is an understatement! This is the letter (e-mail) I rec'd from the Hodgdon Company.

"Ok, it can get confusing. There is only one powder in the world with the word “Universal” in it. Regardless of whether it is called, Universal, Universal Clays, Universal with Clays technology, or Clays Universal, it is all the same product. The only thing that counts is the word “Universal”

Both Clays and Universal can be used in the 45 with 200 gr semi wad cutters. I am going to send you some data in a separate email and you will see data for both powders. "

I know if came from Hodgdon, but I am still leery...

[oneounceload]

I use both Clays and Universal Clays for loading shotshells and pistol - both work great, clean burning, and do a great job. No confusion or issues....

[QBall45]

Confusing? You bet! This is why I choose to use powders that are singular in nature like W231 and H335 or H322 or Bullseye or RL15. There can be no confusion here.

There can be no mixing up load data. Take a bottle off the shelf, triple check ya have what you think it to be. Then open your manual and check it against the book to be sure your remembering correctly. That load in your head is right...you know it is cause ya loaded several thousand rounds using that load. But, its been a week, month, year or two since you last loaded that load. Why chance it? (But I know its right) why do we let ourselves become complacent, lazy? Becasue its easy. Pull out the book, loo up the load we want then grab the powder off the shelf, compare to the load on the page. Grab the brass that's clean, sized and primed. Find the projectials we want to load. Again look at the load in the book...it matches the load/powder. Ready to go.

I still can't undertand why I let reloading get so confusing. Its really like cooking. My Mother tought my to follow the recipe card in that little card file in the cupboard. Seems like when I strayed from it my cookies never turned out. My guess is the same would be true with reloading. I figure that's why I've usually got at least 1 manual on the bench as well as the load data cards I've made for each load I put together.

[rc]

I don't know who you contacted at the company but they are a lower level "MORON". There are three different "CLAYS" powders as have been stated above. You have Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays. There is no handgun data that I know of for International Clays though I'm sure someone has developed loads in pistols for this powder. There is lots of data for "Clays" and "Universal Clays". If you use the same amount of "Clays" in a load that says "Universal" which is short for "Universal Clays" you will have an overload and a kaboom because they are not, I repeat not the same powder. I think the numnutz is looking at the powder data without really knowing the product line. The reloading manuals simply say "Clays", "International" and "Universal" to differentiate the three different powders. The product packaging says "Clays", "international Clays" and "Universal Clays" because they are all suitable for clay target loads in different gauges of shotgun. Confusing I know. The answer you got from the company claiming just one "clays" adds to the confusion because of their own packaging vs. nomeclature in published data. Just go by the data in the reloading manual knowing that the three powders are NOT THE SAME!

[Unclenick]

The company response made that all perfectly clear, I thought. If the word "Universal" is anywhere in the name, there is just one possible powder it refers to, and that is Hodgdon Universal Clays. "Universal" is a common truncation of that full name, but it's never been a different powder. If the name "Clays" stands alone, it means that really fast stuff you use tiny quantities of. It is actually the name "Clays", standing alone that is the only issue, I expect. As was commented earlier, we don't have an issue distinguishing Red Dot from Green Dot from Blue Dot, just because the word "Dot" is repeated among them all. I think if Hodgdon would come up with a prefix word for the fast "Clays" powder's name, then we would have, say, Quickie Clays, International Clays, and Universal Clays, and people would have no problem distinguishing them.

[BigJimP]

I like Hodgdon powders .....and use a lot of it .

I don't find the names confusing at all - There are 3 powders in the "clays" series - Hodgdon Clays, Hodgdon Universal Clays and Hodgdon International Clays.

Clays and Universal Clays both have a number of applications for handguns / although I prefer Hodgdon TiteGroup for all my handguns / my primary use for International Clays is in a 20ga, for Universal Clays is in 28ga, and for Clays is in a 12ga.

[FlyFish]

As was commented earlier, we don't have an issue distinguishing Red Dot from Green Dot from Blue Dot, just because the word "Dot" is repeated among them all.

True, but there's no powder simply named "Dot," and that makes all the difference.

[SKULLANDCROSSBONES65]

G'day.

Originally Posted by rc

I don't know who you contacted at the company but they are a lower level "MORON".

This "lower level MORON" might have just had the wrong question.

I had a question for the SIERRA people that had to be asked 5 times before they acknolaged they made a mistake. Each time I asked I had to change the question so as to make myself understood. It would have been easy to cr@p on their product (& people) based on my first couple of responses.

This just goes to show that one must take great care when selecting reloading components.

[oneounceload]

True, but there's no powder simply named "Dot," and that makes all the difference.

And there's only one powder named Clays....as mentioned above, the other ones are Universal Clays and International Clays - really not that hard....

[BigJimP]

shhh ....quiet OneOunce don't make this stuff too easy ......they'll all figure it out .......

In all seriousness guys - read / learn about your components - don't take my word, or anyone elses for it ......check it out ! Lots of load info on line, reloading manuals, powder company websites, etc ...

[GP100man]

someone put the word clays first in all the "clay" series powders & the confusion grew to what it is today.

[Unclenick]

True, but there's no powder simply named "Dot," and that makes all the difference.

That was my point in suggesting it be renamed "Quickie Clays". But if you don't like the name, we could hold a contest. Then we could petition Hodgdon to make the winning change.

Hmm. The existing progression is <blank>, International, Universal. We go from something the size of the world to something the size of the cosmos in the last two steps. I think that means we describe something the size of an atom at the first step. Atomic Clays. Get them to add a luminous dye so it glows in the dark. Good way to keep from confusing it with any other flake.

[Uncle Buck]

I keep seeing references to Hodgdon’s Universal Clay powder and Clays Universal powder… I am confused.



I notice you have to types of powder that I have been able to find. “Clays” and “Universal, Clays Technology”

They both have pistol and shotgun reloading data on the bottles. Which is the one I use for reloading a 200 Gr SWC? What charge do I use? I am new to reloading and this is so dang frustrating. Trying to find the bullet weight I am using and the charges recommended (Low pressure charges, I just want to plink) is a pain in the butt.

Could you help a guy out? I do not want to buy even more powder until I use what I have.



Thanks,

Buck

ANSWER: Ok, it can get confusing. There is only one powder in the world with the word “Universal” in it. Regardless of whether it is called, Universal, Universal Clays, Universal with Clays technology, or Clays Universal, it is all the same product. The only thing that counts is the word “Universal”

Both Clays and Universal can be used in the 45 with 200 gr semi wad cutters. I am going to send you some data in a separate email and you will see data for both powders.


Customer Satisfaction Manager


I do not believe they are the same powder. Clays has the word CLAYS with two clays on the label. Universal has a picture of a pistol on the label, along with the words :Clays technology.

In the Powder burn rate chart, they list CLAYS, Hodgdon at the number five position and Universal, Hodgdon at the number 21 position.

I think I was on the lower level of the moron scale. I should have looked at the bottles a little more closely before I wrote the company. The CLAYS bottle does not have the word universal on it, but the UNIVERSAL also has the word CLAYS TECHNOLOGY, right under the word Universal. I should have been much clearer in my letter to the company.

Also, He did send me the load charts for both the .45 long colt and the .45 ACP, as I did not specify which one I was inquiring about.

I am going to go over there ---------------------------------->
... And sit back under my rock...

[oneounceload]

This is from Hodgdon:

Introduced in January, 1992, CLAYS gunpowder has "taken the clay target world by storm". It is the cleanest burning , most consistent 12 ga. 7/8., 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. powder available today, the preferred choice of competitive target shooters.. The superb burning characteristics of this powder produce soft, smooth recoil and excellent patterns. These features transfer directly to handgun applications where target shooting is the main goal. 45 ACP and 38 Special are only two of the cartridges where CLAYS gunpowder provides "tack driving" target accuracy with flawless functioning. Available in 14 oz., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

INTERNATIONAL CLAYS gunpowder is the second in the "CLAYS" gunpowder series of powders, bringing this technology to the 20 gauge reloader. It also works in 12 ga., 2 3/4" light, medium and heavy 1 1/8 oz. loads, and high velocity 1 oz. As with CLAYS gunpowder, clean burning and flawless functioning is the rule. Available in 14 oz., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

UNIVERSAL Clays gunpowder handles the broadest spectrum of cartridges for both pistol and shotgun. This is the Clays gunpowder technology designed for 28 gauge shooters. From the 25 ACP to the 44 magnum and 28 gauge to 12 gauge, UNIVERSAL CLAYS gunpowder provides outstanding performance. As with all the "CLAYS" gunpowder series powders, clean burning and uniformity are part of its attributes. Available in 1 lb., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

NOW, from Alliant comes Claydot, aimed directly at Hodgdon's Clays:

Clay Dot®
Smokeless shotshell powder

Designed for competition shooters, Clay Dot™ is functionally and technically identical to competitive shotshell powders but at a reduced price. This American-made powder meters the same through reloading press powder bushings and functions with the exact same powder charge weights to achieve equal velocities and pressures. No need to change bushings or load data.

* Optimum load for light and standard 12 gauge target loads
* Available in 8-pound canisters only (2 per case)
* Proudly made in America

Principal Purpose: Light and standard 12 ga. target

Remarks:
Designed to duplicates the performance of Hodgdon® Clays™ at an economical price.

Still confused????????

[Unclenick]

Uncle Buck,

The bottom line is that all the various powder names that have the word "UNIVERSAL" in them ARE all the same powder. That's why you can't locate them as separate products, or their load data as separate data.

I don't know what velocity or power level you want to load your 200 grain SWC to? In general, take any load you find for Unique with that bullet and reduce it's charge weight 5% for Hodgdon UNIVERSAL (fill in the other name parts of your choice here). Start with 4.5 grains if you don't know where to go with this, and work up. I have shot literally thousands of hard cast H&G 68 shaped 200 grain SWC's over 4.8 grains of UNIVERSAL (fill in the other name parts of your choice here) in mixed cases and they function a full size 1911 or a Commander size gun with full power recoil springs just fine. The Hodgdon site says that if you use a COL of 1.225" you can go to a maximum of 6.3 grains with Winchester cases. I would limit it to 5.8 grains with other cases or with a shorter COL, like 1.200", as some SWC shapes require.

If you buy the powder that is named CLAYS and only named CLAYS, start with 2.8 grains and work up. Hodgdon's web site says the max is 4.3 grains with the 1.225" COL. For the shorter conditions I mentions above, I'd limit it to 3.8 grains.