Col For Hornady 150 Gr .308 Win Load

under_dawg · April 7, 2009, 04:49 PM

Could someone tell me the COL for a Hornady .308 Win with a Hornady 150 grain soft point/ boat tail? I'll be using Varget powder. I have a Speer manual, and Sierra Data, but could only find Hornady bullets. My Hornady friend is out of town right now (I give him Speer data - he provides Hornady data). Any help would be appreciated.

TonyAR308 · April 7, 2009, 07:13 PM

According to my Hornady 7th Edition, C.O.L.:2.735". (That is for the #3033BTSP.)

under_dawg · April 8, 2009, 06:03 AM

Thanks for the info. I saw 2.8 in a couple of sources with their bullets.

steve4102 · April 8, 2009, 07:07 AM

COL is firearm specific, not manual specific. The COL listed in manuals is only a guide as as little to do with your rifle. Here is what Accurate Powder has to say about listed COL.

SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must
be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as 1) magazine length (space), 2) freebore-lead dimensions of
the barrel, 3) ogive or profile of the projectile and 4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.

TonyAR308 · April 8, 2009, 04:44 PM

Ok, to be more specific from the manual and to provide more information. The test firearm in the Hornady manual is a Winchester 70, 22", 1 in 12" twist barrel. Hornady/Frontier case and Federal 210 primer. Max C.O.L. is 2.810". Max case length 2.015". Case trim length 2.005". That is the test media listed for the 308 Winchester.

Bullet weight of 150-155 grains, sectional density 0.226-0.233. The C.O.L. is 2.735" for the BTSP, B.C. is 0.349.

steve4102 · April 8, 2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Ok, to be more specific from the manual and to provide more information. The test firearm in the Hornady manual is a Winchester 70, 22", 1 in 12" twist barrel. Hornady/Frontier case and Federal 210 primer. Max C.O.L. is 2.810". Max case length 2.015". Case trim length 2.005". That is the test media listed for the 308 Winchester.

Bullet weight of 150-155 grains, sectional density 0.226-0.233. The C.O.L. is 2.735" for the BTSP, B.C. is 0.349

Which mean very little to the handloader. Manuals are only guides and not recipes. There are two basic rules of thumb for COL. One, is to seat at least 1 bullet diameter into the case and two, is to know were the lands are on your particular firearm. Knowing were the lands are will allow you to keep unwanted pressure down by inadvertently jamming the bullet into the lands. Other than these two and maybe mag length, load em as long or short as you like. Just remember to start low and work up.

mrawesome22 · April 8, 2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Could someone tell me the COL for a Hornady .308 Win with a Hornady 150 grain soft point/ boat tail?

.030" off the rifling is a starting point.

TonyAR308 · April 8, 2009, 09:17 PM

I didn't realize the data in reloading manuals mean very little to reloaders. Oops, just checked the useless (Hornady) manual again and the C.O.L. you asked for is still 2.735".

mrawesome22 · April 8, 2009, 09:28 PM

The data in manuals you need to concern yourself with is the powder charge and case length. The rest is up to YOU! LOL

mrawesome22 · April 8, 2009, 09:31 PM

Steve is right too. Some bullets like a really long jump to the rifling for some reason. Usually the cheap bullets from my experience.

steve4102 · April 9, 2009, 07:47 AM

Quote:

I didn't realize the data in reloading manuals mean very little to reloaders. Oops, just checked the useless (Hornady) manual again and the C.O.L. you asked for is still 2.735".

AH, sarcasm, I love it. Anyhow if you would check your Hornady #7 manual and actually read page 63 you would fine this.

**Unclenick** · April 9, 2009, 08:56 AM

You may as well end the sarcasm war. You are both correct. COL's are advisory, with the SAAMI maximum only intended to ensure feed from a magazine that is designed for SAAMI compliant ammunition. However, Hornady does publish the COL's that were used in the ammunition testing they did for their powder charge/velocity tables. If you want the same pressures or velocity results using their gun and component combinations, then you will need to start with their COL's. Additionally, Hornady puts cannelures on many of their bullets. With their cannelured bullets, they always give the COL that corresponds to having the cannelure level with the case mouth for optional crimping.

Note that 0.030" off the lands or a published manual COL or a SAAMI COL are none guaranteed to be best in your particular gun. Seating depth, like powder charge, is something you tune in small increments to get the smallest groups. Most guns have a couple of seating depth sweet spots where groups seem to shrink as compared to seating depths either side of these sweet spots. One usually is near 0.030" off the lands, though you see people claim to have found anything from about 0.010" to 0.050" off the lands doing best in their particular gun.

Seating the bottom edge of the bullet bearing surface near to one caliber into the case neck often produces another sweet spot, though it is not usually quite as tight as the first one. There are some exceptions though. There is at least one post that's been on the web a long time from a South African who said Somachem used to offer a load tuning service that began with finding that seating depth sweet spot, then adjusting the powder charge. IIRC, he said they once tuned in old hunting rifle with a badly worn throat, thinking they wouldn't be able to get very good results, but that it proved to be the single most accurate rifle they ever tested. And because this was for hunting, they would be loading FL sized cases and seating depth that allowed magazine fit and feeding, meaning they would have been nearer that one-caliber-deep spot than to kissing the lands. So you just never know what will be best in your gun until you try?

By the way, if you find a best seating depth that is not matching a bullet's cannelure, but you also want a crimp, the Lee Factory Crimp die will make the crimp near the case mouth on a smooth part of the bullet bearing surface. No cannelure co-location required.

Slamfire · April 9, 2009, 01:47 PM

Sure, playing around with seating depth, weighing your cases, reaming the flash hole, neck turning, cutting the primer pocket to depth, weighing your powder, that stuff is all great if you are shooting on a bench with sand bags.

And it is all in the noise if you are shooting a hunting rifle unsupported.

When I did load development with 150 gr Hornady FMJ's, I just seated the bullet at or near the cannulure. Having shot enough 30 caliber bullets out to 600 yards, I have not found a jump sensitive bullet. (Bergers may be).

For my short yard ammo, (300 yards), I just seat the buggers so they won't interfer with the magazine during rapid reloading. And they all shoot fine.

I did measure the OAL on my Hornady's and it was 2.785 ish.

under_dawg · April 10, 2009, 08:00 PM

Thanks for all the replies guys. I am kind of new to reloading rifle ammo. I reload mostly pistol. I followed some of ya'lls advice and decided to start a bullet in a sized case, I put it in Savage and closed the bolt. I measured the oal at 2.802". I read above to start .030" off of that. The problem is that the cannelure is still above the mouth of the case. I kept playing with it and think the longest I can go with the cannelure is 2.755". I'm just wanting to get a deer hunting load, so it doesn't need to be benchrest accurate. Probably will not have over a 200 yard shot anyway. Thanks again.

steve4102 · April 11, 2009, 12:29 AM

It is not written in stone that your bullet of choice must be seated to the cannelure, especially if you are not going to crimp. Seat it where it works best for you. Not seating the bullet to the cannelure may not look the best , but the cannelure has little to do with the safety and accuracy of a load.

**Unclenick** · April 11, 2009, 10:06 AM

Under Dawg,

The last comment is correct. But sometimes crimping helps accuracy by improving ignition start pressure consistency and by helping keep the bullet from being tipped by bumping up against the loading ramp when you feed from a magazine. You should give it a try, also.

You misunderstood the 0.030" number. It is not 0.030" from the cannelure's match to the case mouth. It is a single-loader's accuracy method that starts by seating the bullet way, way out so that it actually touches what Hatcher called the bullet seat, which is the conical taper in the throat of the bore where the rifling begins. Then they seat the bullet 0.30" deeper into the case than it takes to touch the seat. That is why the measurement is referred to as the distance "off the lands", meaning the cartridge length is that much shorter than allows the bullet to touch down on the lands in the barrel. Also, as I explained, 0.030" is just a general purpose number. Lots of shooters claim their guns prefer 0.020" or 0.025" off the lands, and occasionally as little or as much as 0.010" or 0.050", and anything in between. It is individual to the gun. But that is all for benchrest shooting, be it paper punching or small varmint shooting, and for bragging group accuracy. It is utterly unnecessary for hunting deer or other medium to large game where you have a killing zone the size of a small plate.

In your shoes I would do exactly what Slamfire1 did. Seat to the cannelure and work your load up to best accuracy at that seating depth. Try crimping to see if improves either accuracy or consistency of velocity (note that you may need to adjust the load down slight for best accuracy with a crimp)? If none of that produces satisfactory results, try moving the bullet in and out in 0.020" increments until you find a better accuracy spot, then tweak the load again. But I seriously doubt you won't find satisfactory accuracy for deer hunting with the bullet at the cannelure.

One last point about accuracy: some gun and load combinations seem to be more immune to the shooter's position behind the gun than others. Any load you work up on the bench you should also try from your different possible hunting positions. This is not to see if the group size changes (it will be smaller in some positions than in others), but to see if the center of the groups, the point of impact (POI), shifts? If is does, you can try a load with a different bullet or powder, or you can simply record the difference so you know to compensate for it in the field.

under_dawg · April 11, 2009, 11:11 AM

Thanks for the details I really appreciate the knowledge you and everyone else have provided. [Qdecided to start a bullet in a sized case, I put it in Savage and closed the bolt. I measured the oal at 2.802". I read above to start .030" off of that.UOTE][/QUOTE] As I closed the bolt, I assumed (maybe incorrectly), that I was in fact seating the bullet to the longest col it could be 2.802" then I was going to use the 2.802" - .030" = ~2.772" as starting point for load development. I thought I read this method in Lee's Modern Reloading, but when I looked earlier today, I couldn't find it in the book. I hope this is a correct method of finding the length where the bullet touches the lands. I may be doing something wrong, I know I have read there is a guage that precision shooters use to get the exact chamber measurements, but since I don't plan on doing any real precision shooting, I have not bought one.

April 7, 2009, 04:49 PM	#1
under_dawg Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Cayce, SC Posts: 222	Col For Hornady 150 Gr .308 Win Load Could someone tell me the COL for a Hornady .308 Win with a Hornady 150 grain soft point/ boat tail? I'll be using Varget powder. I have a Speer manual, and Sierra Data, but could only find Hornady bullets. My Hornady friend is out of town right now (I give him Speer data - he provides Hornady data). Any help would be appreciated.

April 8, 2009, 09:17 PM	#8
TonyAR308 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 102	My apologies to under_dawg I didn't realize the data in reloading manuals mean very little to reloaders. Oops, just checked the useless (Hornady) manual again and the C.O.L. you asked for is still 2.735".

April 9, 2009, 08:56 AM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	You may as well end the sarcasm war. You are both correct. COL's are advisory, with the SAAMI maximum only intended to ensure feed from a magazine that is designed for SAAMI compliant ammunition. However, Hornady does publish the COL's that were used in the ammunition testing they did for their powder charge/velocity tables. If you want the same pressures or velocity results using their gun and component combinations, then you will need to start with their COL's. Additionally, Hornady puts cannelures on many of their bullets. With their cannelured bullets, they always give the COL that corresponds to having the cannelure level with the case mouth for optional crimping. Note that 0.030" off the lands or a published manual COL or a SAAMI COL are none guaranteed to be best in your particular gun. Seating depth, like powder charge, is something you tune in small increments to get the smallest groups. Most guns have a couple of seating depth sweet spots where groups seem to shrink as compared to seating depths either side of these sweet spots. One usually is near 0.030" off the lands, though you see people claim to have found anything from about 0.010" to 0.050" off the lands doing best in their particular gun. Seating the bottom edge of the bullet bearing surface near to one caliber into the case neck often produces another sweet spot, though it is not usually quite as tight as the first one. There are some exceptions though. There is at least one post that's been on the web a long time from a South African who said Somachem used to offer a load tuning service that began with finding that seating depth sweet spot, then adjusting the powder charge. IIRC, he said they once tuned in old hunting rifle with a badly worn throat, thinking they wouldn't be able to get very good results, but that it proved to be the single most accurate rifle they ever tested. And because this was for hunting, they would be loading FL sized cases and seating depth that allowed magazine fit and feeding, meaning they would have been nearer that one-caliber-deep spot than to kissing the lands. So you just never know what will be best in your gun until you try? By the way, if you find a best seating depth that is not matching a bullet's cannelure, but you also want a crimp, the Lee Factory Crimp die will make the crimp near the case mouth on a smooth part of the bullet bearing surface. No cannelure co-location required. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; April 9, 2009 at 09:01 AM.

April 11, 2009, 10:06 AM	#16
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Under Dawg, The last comment is correct. But sometimes crimping helps accuracy by improving ignition start pressure consistency and by helping keep the bullet from being tipped by bumping up against the loading ramp when you feed from a magazine. You should give it a try, also. You misunderstood the 0.030" number. It is not 0.030" from the cannelure's match to the case mouth. It is a single-loader's accuracy method that starts by seating the bullet way, way out so that it actually touches what Hatcher called the bullet seat, which is the conical taper in the throat of the bore where the rifling begins. Then they seat the bullet 0.30" deeper into the case than it takes to touch the seat. That is why the measurement is referred to as the distance "off the lands", meaning the cartridge length is that much shorter than allows the bullet to touch down on the lands in the barrel. Also, as I explained, 0.030" is just a general purpose number. Lots of shooters claim their guns prefer 0.020" or 0.025" off the lands, and occasionally as little or as much as 0.010" or 0.050", and anything in between. It is individual to the gun. But that is all for benchrest shooting, be it paper punching or small varmint shooting, and for bragging group accuracy. It is utterly unnecessary for hunting deer or other medium to large game where you have a killing zone the size of a small plate. In your shoes I would do exactly what Slamfire1 did. Seat to the cannelure and work your load up to best accuracy at that seating depth. Try crimping to see if improves either accuracy or consistency of velocity (note that you may need to adjust the load down slight for best accuracy with a crimp)? If none of that produces satisfactory results, try moving the bullet in and out in 0.020" increments until you find a better accuracy spot, then tweak the load again. But I seriously doubt you won't find satisfactory accuracy for deer hunting with the bullet at the cannelure. One last point about accuracy: some gun and load combinations seem to be more immune to the shooter's position behind the gun than others. Any load you work up on the bench you should also try from your different possible hunting positions. This is not to see if the group size changes (it will be smaller in some positions than in others), but to see if the center of the groups, the point of impact (POI), shifts? If is does, you can try a load with a different bullet or powder, or you can simply record the difference so you know to compensate for it in the field. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; April 11, 2009 at 10:12 AM.

April 11, 2009, 11:11 AM	#17
under_dawg Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Cayce, SC Posts: 222	UncleNick Thanks for the details I really appreciate the knowledge you and everyone else have provided. [Qdecided to start a bullet in a sized case, I put it in Savage and closed the bolt. I measured the oal at 2.802". I read above to start .030" off of that.UOTE][/QUOTE] As I closed the bolt, I assumed (maybe incorrectly), that I was in fact seating the bullet to the longest col it could be 2.802" then I was going to use the 2.802" - .030" = ~2.772" as starting point for load development. I thought I read this method in Lee's Modern Reloading, but when I looked earlier today, I couldn't find it in the book. I hope this is a correct method of finding the length where the bullet touches the lands. I may be doing something wrong, I know I have read there is a guage that precision shooters use to get the exact chamber measurements, but since I don't plan on doing any real precision shooting, I have not bought one.

April 7, 2009, 07:13 PM	#2
TonyAR308 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 102	According to my Hornady 7th Edition, C.O.L.:2.735". (That is for the #3033BTSP.)

April 8, 2009, 06:03 AM	#3
under_dawg Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Cayce, SC Posts: 222	Thanks for the info. I saw 2.8 in a couple of sources with their bullets.

April 8, 2009, 07:07 AM	#4
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,952	COL is firearm specific, not manual specific. The COL listed in manuals is only a guide as as little to do with your rifle. Here is what Accurate Powder has to say about listed COL. SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL” It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only. The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination. This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as 1) magazine length (space), 2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel, 3) ogive or profile of the projectile and 4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.

April 8, 2009, 04:44 PM	#5
TonyAR308 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 102	Ok, to be more specific from the manual and to provide more information. The test firearm in the Hornady manual is a Winchester 70, 22", 1 in 12" twist barrel. Hornady/Frontier case and Federal 210 primer. Max C.O.L. is 2.810". Max case length 2.015". Case trim length 2.005". That is the test media listed for the 308 Winchester. Bullet weight of 150-155 grains, sectional density 0.226-0.233. The C.O.L. is 2.735" for the BTSP, B.C. is 0.349.

April 8, 2009, 09:28 PM	#9
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	The data in manuals you need to concern yourself with is the powder charge and case length. The rest is up to YOU! LOL

April 8, 2009, 09:31 PM	#10
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Steve is right too. Some bullets like a really long jump to the rifling for some reason. Usually the cheap bullets from my experience.

April 9, 2009, 01:47 PM	#13
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Sure, playing around with seating depth, weighing your cases, reaming the flash hole, neck turning, cutting the primer pocket to depth, weighing your powder, that stuff is all great if you are shooting on a bench with sand bags. And it is all in the noise if you are shooting a hunting rifle unsupported. When I did load development with 150 gr Hornady FMJ's, I just seated the bullet at or near the cannulure. Having shot enough 30 caliber bullets out to 600 yards, I have not found a jump sensitive bullet. (Bergers may be). For my short yard ammo, (300 yards), I just seat the buggers so they won't interfer with the magazine during rapid reloading. And they all shoot fine. I did measure the OAL on my Hornady's and it was 2.785 ish.

April 10, 2009, 08:00 PM	#14
under_dawg Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Cayce, SC Posts: 222	Thanks for all the replies guys. I am kind of new to reloading rifle ammo. I reload mostly pistol. I followed some of ya'lls advice and decided to start a bullet in a sized case, I put it in Savage and closed the bolt. I measured the oal at 2.802". I read above to start .030" off of that. The problem is that the cannelure is still above the mouth of the case. I kept playing with it and think the longest I can go with the cannelure is 2.755". I'm just wanting to get a deer hunting load, so it doesn't need to be benchrest accurate. Probably will not have over a 200 yard shot anyway. Thanks again.

April 11, 2009, 12:29 AM	#15
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,952	It is not written in stone that your bullet of choice must be seated to the cannelure, especially if you are not going to crimp. Seat it where it works best for you. Not seating the bullet to the cannelure may not look the best , but the cannelure has little to do with the safety and accuracy of a load.