Safe to use old IMR 4895?

jack76590 · June 15, 2009, 03:47 AM

I have about one pound left in an 8 pound can of IMR 4895. The powder was purchased in 1980 and is getting some rust color and give off some dust when handled. Smells normal. My question is: is it safe to use for a light rifle load? Thinking 40 gr in 30-06 behind 147 gr mil type bullet.

Not too interested in accuracy. If gave 4" at 100 yards I could just use for off hand practice. I really don't have any place to burn. So if disposal is recommended what are disposal options? I know some people even spread on their lawn for fertilizer and water in. Your recommendations, experiences appreciated.

VaFisher · June 15, 2009, 06:02 AM

Yea it's safe, I have used powder that's older with no adverse effects.

Slamfire · June 15, 2009, 08:57 AM

There are those who think powder lasts forever (a case of denial, folks bought surplus powders and want the stuff to last forever) but your experience shows that powder goes bad in the can. And it took 28 years.

When you get the rust in the can, or that red color, or a real bitter smell, it is time to toss the powder. Sorry.

With double based powders, the nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine will combine to form a lower energy compound. The reaction releases nitric acid gas and produces heat. There are stabilizers in the powder, and once that is gone, or depleted, the powder is unstable.

Old powder has spontaneously exploded. Old powder has caused ammunition depots across the world to blow. Just Google Ammunition Depot Explosion and read about the ones going off in Eastern Europe. http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/files...explosions.pdf The US military does not release information on their bunker blasts, (Government Behavior #2: minimize scandal!) but bunkers have gone sky high in the US. The greatest was at Picatinny Arsenal http://www3.gendisasters.com/new-jer...ion,-july-1926

You can store old powders in water. The Navy stored old cannon powder under water. I was told by a Naval Energics Expert that water deteriorated powder (I don’t know how), I had 16 pounds of surplus IMR powder that went bad. I stored some of it in water, dried the stuff out months later and shot it. See pictures. It all went bang. However due to neck cracking in cases loaded with the stuff, I finally poured it all out on the lawn.

That is one other problem with old powder. The nitric acid gas will ruin brass. It caused green corrosion on the bottom of bullets, and caused case neck cracks. You leave the stuff sitting around in good brass for a year, and go out and shoot the stuff, you will find a lot of cracked case necks after firing. Let it sit around for two years and the cases will be cracked before firing. That was my experience and I tossed 700 LC Match cases because of that old surplus powder.

My recommendation: Just toss the stuff. If you load it and shoot it within the week, it will go bang. Leave it in the case for a long time, and you will regret it.

**Mal H** · June 15, 2009, 09:28 AM

I definitely agree with Slamfire1. When the composition of smokeless powder has changed, and you described that, it's time to dispose of it and not in loaded ammo. I would simply spread it out on a wide area of the lawn or ground and let nature take care of it. The nitrogen in it will do the plants some good. However, if it does smell acidic (that's hard to describe in words if you haven't smelled it before), you shouldn't pour it on the lawn, maybe on a patch of weeds instead.

**Mike Irwin** · June 15, 2009, 09:37 AM

The rust color could be rust from the can, or it could be nitrogen oxide formation, indicating that the powder is breaking down.

Either way, spread it THINLY on your lawn and let nature take its course. Good food for the grass.

jack76590 · June 15, 2009, 04:54 PM

Thanks for replies. I have received a lot of recommendation to spread thinly on the lawn. But I have heard about powder that is put under water and dried out still being good. This info and potential of lawn fire worries me.

Is the key to spread it thinly and does the water, environment ultimately break powder down?

jack76590 · June 15, 2009, 05:25 PM

I put remaining powder in a plastic bottle - looks like less than a pound as did not fill 16 ounce bottle.

I then cut old metal can in half. It sure looks like rust all over insides of metal can. I actual feel good about this. If it is rust I don't suppose I should load it, but I gather I am not in immediate danger of it catching fire on its own. Am I correct in that assumption? If so I may just spread 3-4 ounces at a time on lawn and let water in before apply more. Again assuming the powder does ultimately break down?

**Mike Irwin** · June 15, 2009, 05:34 PM

Yes, the powder breaks down.

No, you won't have a powder fire on your lawn UNLESS you pour it in a very tight little pile and then smoke a cigarette while standing right over it.

Sport45 · June 15, 2009, 06:49 PM

Broadcasting it on the yard is plenty safe. It's good fertilizer, but unless your willing to put 50# or so on your lawn you probably won't see a difference in green-ness.

You could also pour that plastic bottle out your car window while driving down the highway. The powder will be so spread out it couldn't hurt anything. Or sling it out of the bottle while walking down the middle of the streat in front of your house. Unless you've got some pretty industrious neighbor kids who are willing to sweep the street to collect it the powder will biodegrade in the storm sewer the next time it rains.

James R. Burke · June 16, 2009, 05:40 PM

Yup there correct. Stay on the safe side and get rid of it. Like Mike said great for the grass!

tom234 · June 18, 2009, 01:57 AM

You're lucky you only had one # left. I bought 8# of IMR 4985 in 1975 and last year found the metal container had appeared to rust from the inside just as you described. my canister was so rusted the snap cap broke off. I had 7# remaining and I threw 5# on the lawn before I decided to use a fan blow off the "rust" and salvage the remaining 2# of powder. Surprisingly, the power itself was bone dry and looked good after the "rust" was blown off. I was going to try and see if the powder was usable but haven't tried it yet. A check of old 1# metal containers of IMR 4320 and 4350 also revealed slight rusting from the inside of the container as well. There must be a chemical reaction that cause metal containers to rust over a long period of time. I don't see any current powders sold in metal containers so maybe that is the reason.

Slamfire · June 18, 2009, 08:57 AM

Quote:

There must be a chemical reaction that cause metal containers to rust over a long period of time.

Nitric acid gas.

Incidentally, powder can be outgassing enough to cause neck cracks and corrode the bottom of bullets, but it won't smell bitter in the can.

When you smell it, it is really gone.

June 15, 2009, 03:47 AM	#1
jack76590 Junior Member Join Date: June 15, 2009 Posts: 3	Safe to use old IMR 4895? I have about one pound left in an 8 pound can of IMR 4895. The powder was purchased in 1980 and is getting some rust color and give off some dust when handled. Smells normal. My question is: is it safe to use for a light rifle load? Thinking 40 gr in 30-06 behind 147 gr mil type bullet. Not too interested in accuracy. If gave 4" at 100 yards I could just use for off hand practice. I really don't have any place to burn. So if disposal is recommended what are disposal options? I know some people even spread on their lawn for fertilizer and water in. Your recommendations, experiences appreciated.

June 15, 2009, 09:37 AM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	The rust color could be rust from the can, or it could be nitrogen oxide formation, indicating that the powder is breaking down. Either way, spread it THINLY on your lawn and let nature take its course. Good food for the grass. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 15, 2009, 05:34 PM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Yes, the powder breaks down. No, you won't have a powder fire on your lawn UNLESS you pour it in a very tight little pile and then smoke a cigarette while standing right over it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 15, 2009, 06:49 PM	#9
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Broadcasting it on the yard is plenty safe. It's good fertilizer, but unless your willing to put 50# or so on your lawn you probably won't see a difference in green-ness. You could also pour that plastic bottle out your car window while driving down the highway. The powder will be so spread out it couldn't hurt anything. Or sling it out of the bottle while walking down the middle of the streat in front of your house. Unless you've got some pretty industrious neighbor kids who are willing to sweep the street to collect it the powder will biodegrade in the storm sewer the next time it rains. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

June 15, 2009, 06:02 AM	#2
VaFisher Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2006 Posts: 596	Yea it's safe, I have used powder that's older with no adverse effects.

June 15, 2009, 08:57 AM	#3
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	There are those who think powder lasts forever (a case of denial, folks bought surplus powders and want the stuff to last forever) but your experience shows that powder goes bad in the can. And it took 28 years. When you get the rust in the can, or that red color, or a real bitter smell, it is time to toss the powder. Sorry. With double based powders, the nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine will combine to form a lower energy compound. The reaction releases nitric acid gas and produces heat. There are stabilizers in the powder, and once that is gone, or depleted, the powder is unstable. Old powder has spontaneously exploded. Old powder has caused ammunition depots across the world to blow. Just Google Ammunition Depot Explosion and read about the ones going off in Eastern Europe. http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/files...explosions.pdf The US military does not release information on their bunker blasts, (Government Behavior #2: minimize scandal!) but bunkers have gone sky high in the US. The greatest was at Picatinny Arsenal http://www3.gendisasters.com/new-jer...ion,-july-1926 You can store old powders in water. The Navy stored old cannon powder under water. I was told by a Naval Energics Expert that water deteriorated powder (I don’t know how), I had 16 pounds of surplus IMR powder that went bad. I stored some of it in water, dried the stuff out months later and shot it. See pictures. It all went bang. However due to neck cracking in cases loaded with the stuff, I finally poured it all out on the lawn. That is one other problem with old powder. The nitric acid gas will ruin brass. It caused green corrosion on the bottom of bullets, and caused case neck cracks. You leave the stuff sitting around in good brass for a year, and go out and shoot the stuff, you will find a lot of cracked case necks after firing. Let it sit around for two years and the cases will be cracked before firing. That was my experience and I tossed 700 LC Match cases because of that old surplus powder. My recommendation: Just toss the stuff. If you load it and shoot it within the week, it will go bang. Leave it in the case for a long time, and you will regret it.

June 15, 2009, 09:28 AM	#4
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	I definitely agree with Slamfire1. When the composition of smokeless powder has changed, and you described that, it's time to dispose of it and not in loaded ammo. I would simply spread it out on a wide area of the lawn or ground and let nature take care of it. The nitrogen in it will do the plants some good. However, if it does smell acidic (that's hard to describe in words if you haven't smelled it before), you shouldn't pour it on the lawn, maybe on a patch of weeds instead.

June 15, 2009, 04:54 PM	#6
jack76590 Junior Member Join Date: June 15, 2009 Posts: 3	Thanks for replies. I have received a lot of recommendation to spread thinly on the lawn. But I have heard about powder that is put under water and dried out still being good. This info and potential of lawn fire worries me. Is the key to spread it thinly and does the water, environment ultimately break powder down?

June 15, 2009, 05:25 PM	#7
jack76590 Junior Member Join Date: June 15, 2009 Posts: 3	I put remaining powder in a plastic bottle - looks like less than a pound as did not fill 16 ounce bottle. I then cut old metal can in half. It sure looks like rust all over insides of metal can. I actual feel good about this. If it is rust I don't suppose I should load it, but I gather I am not in immediate danger of it catching fire on its own. Am I correct in that assumption? If so I may just spread 3-4 ounces at a time on lawn and let water in before apply more. Again assuming the powder does ultimately break down?

June 16, 2009, 05:40 PM	#10
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	Yup there correct. Stay on the safe side and get rid of it. Like Mike said great for the grass!

June 18, 2009, 01:57 AM	#11
tom234 Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 753	You're lucky you only had one # left. I bought 8# of IMR 4985 in 1975 and last year found the metal container had appeared to rust from the inside just as you described. my canister was so rusted the snap cap broke off. I had 7# remaining and I threw 5# on the lawn before I decided to use a fan blow off the "rust" and salvage the remaining 2# of powder. Surprisingly, the power itself was bone dry and looked good after the "rust" was blown off. I was going to try and see if the powder was usable but haven't tried it yet. A check of old 1# metal containers of IMR 4320 and 4350 also revealed slight rusting from the inside of the container as well. There must be a chemical reaction that cause metal containers to rust over a long period of time. I don't see any current powders sold in metal containers so maybe that is the reason.