High Standard Safety Question

gmckinney626 · May 6, 2015, 11:30 AM

I have a Model E for a customer that I am struggling to figure out the configuration for the safety spring and detent ball. The safety itself has a detent on it that corresponds to the 2 grooves in the receiver. The safety, however, will not stay engaged in the up or "safe" position. The groove in the safety itself is for the safety to block the sear, so no allowance for the detent system there. Any experience with this particular design?

Dixie Gunsmithing · May 6, 2015, 11:33 AM

Which model High-Standard?

CowTowner · May 6, 2015, 11:45 AM

Quote:

I have a Model E

Is that not correct?

gmckinney626 · May 6, 2015, 12:16 PM

Yes, Model E

Dixie Gunsmithing · May 6, 2015, 12:17 PM

I didn't see that. How I missed the model, I have no idea, LOL!

Doesn't the spring and ball go into the safeties thumbpiece on these? It's been awhile since I've worked on one this old.

Edit:

I took a look at the best schematic I could find, and it was too dark to see the frame good enough to tell where the detent recesses were in the frame. Anyhow, it supposed to block the sear from being pulled by the trigger bar, which has a hook on it. There is a arm sticking off the sear, that goes through a hole in the frame, and the hook catches that, to pull it forward, to fire it. If I recall, the safety actually blocks the arm of the sear, for safe on these. This was the last model that they made with this type of safety. They were similar on the A thru E.

Anyhow, the safety spring ought to be stout enough to hold the safety on. It is a miniature thing, and could have weakened, or be dirty. Also, the detent notches that the ball sets into, may be worn.

gmckinney626 · May 6, 2015, 01:10 PM

Correct on all accounts. The issue I have is the orientation of the spring and detent on the safety. I can't find anywhere to put them! I too have had no luck with schematics.

Dixie Gunsmithing · May 6, 2015, 02:30 PM

Do you have a way of taking a photo of the back side of the safety and the screw?

I looked in an NRA manual, and it does not have the spring nor detent ball listed, though I know they're there. It didn't seem to be a complete takedown on it.

James K · May 6, 2015, 07:36 PM

That is the second type Model E; the takedown is different but the safety is the same.

The problem is that you have too many parts. What looks like a little "tit" in the safety is actually the safety lever lock ball; the spring is behind it. You should be able to confirm that by pressing it in with a screwdriver. The safety should work fine just as it is, once the screw is put in to hold it against the frame

The other ball and spring are not part of the safety; they might be parts from a sight.

Jim

Dixie Gunsmithing · May 7, 2015, 03:36 AM

Jim, didn't these have the detent notches or divots on the frame, in front of the safety screw?

My guess is that the safe notch could be wallowed out, or that the safety spring, behind the ball, is collapsed. I'm betting more on the spring.

Edit:

I watched the AGI video on High Standard pistols, and the one he had, that was the closest, was the HD, and I think it was machined a little differently on the frame than the E. However, it showed the ball sticking out of the front back of the safety, but it had no divots nor notches in the frame, that I could see, for the ball to go into. I guess it could be held by friction. I think the spring is too weak to hold it up, or dirt has gotten around the ball, to where it cant work properly.

Dixie Gunsmithing · May 7, 2015, 06:46 AM

After checking, the side plate for the E is different than the HD, so I don't think it has indents on it for the ball on the safety. It looks like the plate stops short of the safety, too. In that case, it would have to contact the frame, I would think, as the ball has to hit something directly behind it.

Ball on back of HD safety:

Snap2 by matneyw, on Flickr

Safety for E, supposedly:

s3 by matneyw, on Flickr

s2 by matneyw, on Flickr

s1 by matneyw, on Flickr

gmckinney626 · May 7, 2015, 07:49 PM

The last one is what I have on this pistol. In looking at the pic you provided and thinking more, I think you may be on to something with a collapsed spring. Additionally, In comparison, the detent looks much more worn on my customer's. The "extra parts" are actually replacement spring and detent. I'll report back tomorrow. Thank you for the input.

James K · May 7, 2015, 11:12 PM

The ball shown in the last picture of #10 is the detent ball. The little short spring is behind it. The ball is held in by a crimp and is intended to be a permanent assembly. I can't be sure but I think that extra spring is too long and too small to be a spring for the safety detent ball.

The spring might have collapsed, but I have never seen one do so. It is easy to check, just push on the ball with a punch or screwdriver and see if it has spring. If the spring has collapsed, getting the spring and ball out is going to be hard. Since the gun has obviously been reblued, I would suspect that maybe some bluing salt has gotten in behind the ball. If so, soaking the safety in a solvent and working the ball by pushing it in and releasing it may free things up.

The detent notches are in the frame and are clearly shown in #1. They are the "rabbit ears" shaped cuts ahead of the safety screw.

I note that the gun has been heavily buffed and blued, so it is not impossible that the frame has been buffed too much. However, the first thing I would check is the fit of the safety to the frame. It should be a close fit. Then check the safety itself to see if it has been bent so the detent ball is out of touch with the frame.

(Studying the hammer (exposed hammer) models won't help; they have a different type of safety arrangement.)

Jim

Dixie Gunsmithing · May 8, 2015, 03:49 AM

I don't get many old model High-Standards here. Most all I work on is from the 100 series on up, (I have a 2nd generation slide in barrel Supermatic myself). It seems the manuals are plentiful for these too.

I did find a copy of the parts list, for the letter models, that was a scan of the sheet and not a dark copy, but it doesn't really show what I was hoping to see either. The E is different, because it has a takedown lever right behind the safety, and that moves the parts around.

Parts List:

HS1 by matneyw, on Flickr

Frame Closeup:

HS2 by matneyw, on Flickr

On the above, it looks to be two elongated cuts for the safeties detent divots, which I guess one could call reverse rabbit ears. That threw me.

The later versions use a method of using the sideplate, which has a spring device, that fits into divots on the safety itself.

Last, if the spring is bad, and soaking it wont bring it loose, I don't know if you can get it out. They sealed that in, using a hollow punch, and compressed the metal all around the front of the ball. You can see an outline of the circular indent in the one photo of the safety above. The new safety, in the photo, came with a ball and spring in it. It's available on ebay, but they want $37.00 for the thing.

James K · May 8, 2015, 03:25 PM

It is a bit hard to tell in the picture, but if you look at part 36 (the spring) you can see that it is very short, only 3-4 coils, a lot shorter than the one the OP has. There is no way that long spring could fit into the safety lock itself.

The safeties and safety lock ball and spring on those guns were all the same; I have a Model B and it is exactly the same as the OP's model E, even though the takedown system is different. The safety with the detents in the side plate is post WWII.

Jim

James K · May 8, 2015, 03:31 PM

I think we need more info from the OP on the problem. Those safeties are held in place with a screw (35) that has a threaded part (that goes into the frame) and a plain part that the safety pivots on, then a large head that holds the safety on. If the safety is loose, you can trim back the shoulder a bit so the screw goes in further and tightens the safety down.

But the first thing is to see if the safety is bent and also to see if the detent ball has spring to it. If the OP can't tell us that, I think we are at a dead end.

Jim

Ken41 · May 8, 2015, 05:44 PM

This seems like a good site to ask questions on all of the High Standard products.

http://disc.yourwebapps.com/Indices/226190.html

Ken

Dixie Gunsmithing · May 9, 2015, 12:37 AM

Ken41, it is, as it is the most complete site on the net about them, and one I use.

There is a better copy of the manual there too.

http://www.histandard.info/manuals/l...280D1200HP.pdf

Jim, yes, if the screw body was worn, it could let the safety be too loose, and the detent not work. If it is tightened down, and the safety be pushed in and out toward the frame, it may be worn out, or even the screws hole wallowed out in the safety itself.

James K · May 9, 2015, 08:47 PM

That is why it is very difficult to answer questions like this without seeing the gun. In addition, the gun has been heavily polished and reblued, so it is hard to tell how much of the frame might have been ground/polished away, changing the fit of all the parts.

Jim

May 6, 2015, 12:17 PM	#5
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	I didn't see that. How I missed the model, I have no idea, LOL! Doesn't the spring and ball go into the safeties thumbpiece on these? It's been awhile since I've worked on one this old. Edit: I took a look at the best schematic I could find, and it was too dark to see the frame good enough to tell where the detent recesses were in the frame. Anyhow, it supposed to block the sear from being pulled by the trigger bar, which has a hook on it. There is a arm sticking off the sear, that goes through a hole in the frame, and the hook catches that, to pull it forward, to fire it. If I recall, the safety actually blocks the arm of the sear, for safe on these. This was the last model that they made with this type of safety. They were similar on the A thru E. Anyhow, the safety spring ought to be stout enough to hold the safety on. It is a miniature thing, and could have weakened, or be dirty. Also, the detent notches that the ball sets into, may be worn. Last edited by Dixie Gunsmithing; May 6, 2015 at 12:51 PM.

May 6, 2015, 07:36 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	That is the second type Model E; the takedown is different but the safety is the same. The problem is that you have too many parts. What looks like a little "tit" in the safety is actually the safety lever lock ball; the spring is behind it. You should be able to confirm that by pressing it in with a screwdriver. The safety should work fine just as it is, once the screw is put in to hold it against the frame The other ball and spring are not part of the safety; they might be parts from a sight. Jim Last edited by James K; May 6, 2015 at 07:43 PM.

May 7, 2015, 03:36 AM	#9
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Jim, didn't these have the detent notches or divots on the frame, in front of the safety screw? My guess is that the safe notch could be wallowed out, or that the safety spring, behind the ball, is collapsed. I'm betting more on the spring. Edit: I watched the AGI video on High Standard pistols, and the one he had, that was the closest, was the HD, and I think it was machined a little differently on the frame than the E. However, it showed the ball sticking out of the front back of the safety, but it had no divots nor notches in the frame, that I could see, for the ball to go into. I guess it could be held by friction. I think the spring is too weak to hold it up, or dirt has gotten around the ball, to where it cant work properly. Last edited by Dixie Gunsmithing; May 7, 2015 at 12:01 PM. Reason: More info

May 7, 2015, 11:12 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The ball shown in the last picture of #10 is the detent ball. The little short spring is behind it. The ball is held in by a crimp and is intended to be a permanent assembly. I can't be sure but I think that extra spring is too long and too small to be a spring for the safety detent ball. The spring might have collapsed, but I have never seen one do so. It is easy to check, just push on the ball with a punch or screwdriver and see if it has spring. If the spring has collapsed, getting the spring and ball out is going to be hard. Since the gun has obviously been reblued, I would suspect that maybe some bluing salt has gotten in behind the ball. If so, soaking the safety in a solvent and working the ball by pushing it in and releasing it may free things up. The detent notches are in the frame and are clearly shown in #1. They are the "rabbit ears" shaped cuts ahead of the safety screw. I note that the gun has been heavily buffed and blued, so it is not impossible that the frame has been buffed too much. However, the first thing I would check is the fit of the safety to the frame. It should be a close fit. Then check the safety itself to see if it has been bent so the detent ball is out of touch with the frame. (Studying the hammer (exposed hammer) models won't help; they have a different type of safety arrangement.) Jim Last edited by James K; May 7, 2015 at 11:19 PM.

May 8, 2015, 05:44 PM	#16
Ken41 Junior Member Join Date: December 23, 2013 Posts: 3	This seems like a good site to ask questions on all of the High Standard products. http://disc.yourwebapps.com/Indices/226190.html Ken __________________ Ken NRA Life Oath Keeper SW PA

May 6, 2015, 11:30 AM	#1
gmckinney626 Member Join Date: June 29, 2012 Posts: 16	High Standard Safety Question I have a Model E for a customer that I am struggling to figure out the configuration for the safety spring and detent ball. The safety itself has a detent on it that corresponds to the 2 grooves in the receiver. The safety, however, will not stay engaged in the up or "safe" position. The groove in the safety itself is for the safety to block the sear, so no allowance for the detent system there. Any experience with this particular design?

May 6, 2015, 11:33 AM	#2
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Which model High-Standard?

May 6, 2015, 12:16 PM	#4
gmckinney626 Member Join Date: June 29, 2012 Posts: 16	Yes, Model E

May 6, 2015, 01:10 PM	#6
gmckinney626 Member Join Date: June 29, 2012 Posts: 16	Correct on all accounts. The issue I have is the orientation of the spring and detent on the safety. I can't find anywhere to put them! I too have had no luck with schematics.

May 6, 2015, 02:30 PM	#7
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Do you have a way of taking a photo of the back side of the safety and the screw? I looked in an NRA manual, and it does not have the spring nor detent ball listed, though I know they're there. It didn't seem to be a complete takedown on it.

May 7, 2015, 06:46 AM	#10
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	After checking, the side plate for the E is different than the HD, so I don't think it has indents on it for the ball on the safety. It looks like the plate stops short of the safety, too. In that case, it would have to contact the frame, I would think, as the ball has to hit something directly behind it. Ball on back of HD safety: Snap2 by matneyw, on Flickr Safety for E, supposedly: s3 by matneyw, on Flickr s2 by matneyw, on Flickr s1 by matneyw, on Flickr Last edited by Dixie Gunsmithing; May 7, 2015 at 02:00 PM. Reason: Update

May 7, 2015, 07:49 PM	#11
gmckinney626 Member Join Date: June 29, 2012 Posts: 16	The last one is what I have on this pistol. In looking at the pic you provided and thinking more, I think you may be on to something with a collapsed spring. Additionally, In comparison, the detent looks much more worn on my customer's. The "extra parts" are actually replacement spring and detent. I'll report back tomorrow. Thank you for the input.

May 8, 2015, 03:49 AM	#13
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	I don't get many old model High-Standards here. Most all I work on is from the 100 series on up, (I have a 2nd generation slide in barrel Supermatic myself). It seems the manuals are plentiful for these too. I did find a copy of the parts list, for the letter models, that was a scan of the sheet and not a dark copy, but it doesn't really show what I was hoping to see either. The E is different, because it has a takedown lever right behind the safety, and that moves the parts around. Parts List: HS1 by matneyw, on Flickr Frame Closeup: HS2 by matneyw, on Flickr On the above, it looks to be two elongated cuts for the safeties detent divots, which I guess one could call reverse rabbit ears. That threw me. The later versions use a method of using the sideplate, which has a spring device, that fits into divots on the safety itself. Last, if the spring is bad, and soaking it wont bring it loose, I don't know if you can get it out. They sealed that in, using a hollow punch, and compressed the metal all around the front of the ball. You can see an outline of the circular indent in the one photo of the safety above. The new safety, in the photo, came with a ball and spring in it. It's available on ebay, but they want $37.00 for the thing.

May 8, 2015, 03:25 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It is a bit hard to tell in the picture, but if you look at part 36 (the spring) you can see that it is very short, only 3-4 coils, a lot shorter than the one the OP has. There is no way that long spring could fit into the safety lock itself. The safeties and safety lock ball and spring on those guns were all the same; I have a Model B and it is exactly the same as the OP's model E, even though the takedown system is different. The safety with the detents in the side plate is post WWII. Jim

May 8, 2015, 03:31 PM	#15
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I think we need more info from the OP on the problem. Those safeties are held in place with a screw (35) that has a threaded part (that goes into the frame) and a plain part that the safety pivots on, then a large head that holds the safety on. If the safety is loose, you can trim back the shoulder a bit so the screw goes in further and tightens the safety down. But the first thing is to see if the safety is bent and also to see if the detent ball has spring to it. If the OP can't tell us that, I think we are at a dead end. Jim

May 9, 2015, 12:37 AM	#17
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Ken41, it is, as it is the most complete site on the net about them, and one I use. There is a better copy of the manual there too. http://www.histandard.info/manuals/l...280D1200HP.pdf Jim, yes, if the screw body was worn, it could let the safety be too loose, and the detent not work. If it is tightened down, and the safety be pushed in and out toward the frame, it may be worn out, or even the screws hole wallowed out in the safety itself.

May 9, 2015, 08:47 PM	#18
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	That is why it is very difficult to answer questions like this without seeing the gun. In addition, the gun has been heavily polished and reblued, so it is hard to tell how much of the frame might have been ground/polished away, changing the fit of all the parts. Jim