BP retail store needs a lil imput

[Hardy]

We order from wholesalers but like to get the cabella short barrel 1858 and have 45 conversion cylinder. Problem is: Folks go to Cabella website and can get it at my price. Now, I can get Piettas at wholesale thru distributors but they are more. Shop keeper says we need to retail all our guns that are not from Cabella. Anyway, I do have a JHDance I'd like to unleash. But you see my dilema. If I order from Cabella I have to price it up. Some folks don't go on internet and they like to buy what they see and feel. Some then have a problem by us marking up price. But I have found that not all cabella guns are in good working order and send them back. Would you, as a retailer of BP, stick to buying from distributors w/ either Pietta/ Uberti/ or Traditions and leave the cabellas out.

I want to get a 3rd gen box for a dragoon and Walker if you have one.

WBH

[zullo74]

Hardy,

If I were a retailer I would get my inventory from my distributors at wholesale prices. As a consumer I would buy from Cabelas! You can not beat their prices. Your price IS my price. I haven't gotten a bad gun from them yet.

[ZVP]

The short barreled Remington is the only one to get! It handles so nicely and points naturally! You'd not think that loosing 2 1/2" of barrel would maqake so much difference but it DOES!
The standard 8" revolver seems so long by comparison that I hardly fire mine anymore. I always grab for the short one. It's about the same overall size as my Vaquero and it handles sililarilly.
With the conversion cylinder, it's about one of the nicest CAS guns there ispair of 58's!
If you can get Remingtons and can beat Cabela's price you'd sell several quickly!
ZVP

[Hardy]

Yeah, I can get those cabella rems at the same price you pay--shop keeper says to get them in either tradition or Pietta box. They are supposed to be better. And if purchaser shops Cabella-- at least we offered something --that ---wasn't obtainable thru Cabella. So to the retail purchaser, knowledgeble of bp arms, might pay a little more. Thanks guys and maybe gals


WBH

[Hawg]

What Zullo said. I've never gotten a bad one or even a questionable one from Cabela's. All of mine have been top shelf.

[Hardy]

Well Hawg I think you were 70/30/ and won. Going on 3 years now with the only BP store in our region, I guess it's time to shut ur down according to what you guys say. Not your fault of course and I like you. I thought in 2009, we might offer something to hobbists etc--w/out realizing the Cabella internet. But maybe that takes a load off me.

After consulting, talking w/ others over the last few years(not only on this thread) about Pietta guns. Pietta guns from Cabella are not as good and bought cheaply (in mass quantity) and made w/dull tools. that is what I was told by experts, others in the trade and some blow hards too! And I've seen some poorly crafted guns--- I have sent back a bunch back to Cabella. I've seen pristine Pietta 51 Navy's in the Pietta box. OK OK I can't compete w/ Cabella and sell cabella!! You know more bout them than me. So -- I do not know what I am going to do. If Cabella is what the demand is--I'm only going to have only a few loyal customers that like Uberti/ Colt 2nds, 3rds and other uniques. Again-I love you guys, I just don't know what I'm going to do. Just give me some lil credit for trying to retail items that are yours and my passion. I might be the last one.

WBH/ shot---------bleeding

[Hawg]

Hardy, I like you but your incessant Cabela's bashing is disturbing. You've bought a lot more guns from them than I have but in my limited experience I'm not seeing anything like what you're saying and I bought my first gun from them over 30 years ago. I've seen a few posts where people had bad ones but I've seen just as many posts where people got bad Uberti's. All this about what box it comes in is bullspit. Everybody gets the same guns as everybody else. I understand you're in the business and they're competition for you so you run them down but you can't compete with places like that, nobody can. All I can say is if you're making money keep doing it, if you're not reevaluate your situation and see what you can do to change it.

[zullo74]

+1 what Hawg said. Cabelas is not selling second grade Piettas. They are the same as everyones. You may still have a market for these, but locally to the folks that want to hold one first before buying and not pay shipping. Cabelas orders in quantity from Pietta. You don't have that kind of buying power so naturally, they can sell for less.

[arcticap]

Hardy, a gun shop needs to have an FFL to survive and even then it's not easy in some places.
Or expand your business to include a pawn shop/consignment shop.
A muzzle loading shop needs to supplement/diversify somehow since many of the wholesale C&B and BP rifle prices are higher than Cabela's sale prices.
There's a large gun shop that started struggling when Cabela's opened a new store here and they ended up moving to another building so that they could construct an indoor shooting range. Now they're doing a lot better than they did before because they have gun rentals and make people buy their ammo to shoot in their range.
It was becoming a struggle for them to survive just by mostly selling new guns and ammo.
Another well established gun shop that had higher overhead expenses also closed. A couple of smaller ones have opened up but they have their own niche that sustains them. One specializes in military and surplus commie bloc guns and ammo while the other manufactures ammo & black AR guns and built a police training facility. And both places have a class 3 FFL to sell automatic weapons.
One new store just opened up nearby and mostly all they sell is ammo and he's supported almost all by internet sales.

www.targetsportsusa.com

The only all muzzle loading shop here went out of business a long time ago well before the internet was so widespread. And he also had an FFL and would special order guns and stock parts to help people build their own muzzle loaders. But so many people were ordering through mail order catalogs that he closed his doors. And he operated from a shop attached to his house, had low overhead, had a lot of muzzle loading parts and accessories, ran black powder ham & plate shoots on his property because he was rural, and he advertised too. But catalog retailers like Bass Pro, Cabela's, Gander Mountain & The Sportsman's Guide were all selling BP guns, as was Walmart, Kmart & nearly every other gun shop at the time.

[Hawg]

Hardy, if you were a consumer like the rest of us what would you do? Would you go with a gun from Cabella's for a cheaper price or buy the same gun from Taylors or Traditions for a little more or go to a local store and pay even more?
Cabela's buys in bulk so they get a better deal and can pass the savings on. Yeah maybe a bad one slips in now and then. Uberti has bad ones out there too. We're not talking about Colt's and S&W's here. It's all about money and with the economy the way it is everybody wants to save as much as they can.

[Hardy]

Thank you. And by the way, I didn't mean to bash cabela. I like cabela. It's just that I can't sell a cabela gun in a cabela box since it is already offered to you at the same price.All I know is that by talking with others that sell these type of guns--I swear-- said that cabela buys so many in bulk that they CAN be of lesser quality. And--buy from Tradition & Taylor & Co. & some others But I was MOSTLY referring to the ones under 200.00 from Cabela(not the upper end ones) But I believe you.

There was a reason in 2009 that I did this. Doesn't matter now. And I did not make any money. But--I learned alot from you guys and met a hell of a bunch of interesting people that came in the shop. Actually we did better than we should have. Bought guns off estates/ etc. that people were glad to sell and others glad to buy.Sold alot of powder and hunting stuff.

I am not whining. I now know (didn't before) that good stuff is available thru Cabela. Well-maybe not all! I was just looking for advise to how to compete or not to compete. And thank you for your responses. And regarding FFL ---most gun stores do not carry C/B-anyway, not in my part here. This was an experiement that kinda worked but kinda didn't AND I have too much in my other line of work to get involved w/fed forms etc. getting robbed etc. There was no red tape in what we did. No forms. Just like selling fishing poles. Never sold one to a convict that I know of --Never sold one to anyone other than guys like you, wanting them for hobby and pleasure. It was and maybe still is fun.

This is America and Free Enterprise. I'm all for it--but don't want to throw good money after bad. Your posts were very helpful and I take no offense at all. I actually am honored that you posted. Unless Merlin the magician comes-- well, you know At least you know I'm quite candid!
WBH--- not bleeding---Doc Adams said get some rest

[pohill]

I do not buy new BP revolvers. I have, in the past, but not in a long time. I buy them used because they are cheaper, and most of the bugs have been worked out. The store in Maine where I buy my guns has yellow tags on the new guns and blue tags on the used ones. I do not even look at the yellow (new) tags. The trick is having a steady supply of used guns that you can buy cheaply. In Maine, they pay half what they will sell the gun for. They also sell originals when they get them. I've gotten great deals on BP guns - long, short and original, and they make out well, too.
They also sell caps, powder, moulds, roundballs, conicals, patches, etc.
They sell guns in Cabelas boxes, Traditions, Taylors, etc. Once word gets out that you will BUY used guns, they will come to your door. How many people inherit guns that they know nothing about, or get bored with BP guns, and just want some cash for them...

[Hardy]

Pohill Cool


What's funny is that I never sold a colt 2nd gen-- but sold quite a few 3rds. Most guys on this thread don't like Colt 3rd's but they did better in my shop along w/old CVA Armi etc. I think I will buy another short rem from cabela if cheaper than my distributor price and order another conversion cylinder. I didn't do too bad with those but to only guys that cared nothing about the BP cylinder. Again most of the ones had trouble going into all 3 cocks. Just 2. Never bought a rem from any distributor. Only bought colt repos from distributors. The 3rd gen 49 pocket and the 1851 navy have silver trigger guard. The frame is browned in hard case a little better than the Italian ones so they really look good - I like them. I have some 3rds in my collection. One I really liked was the marine dragoon w/gold cylinder/ screws and silver barrel. I do not have a wood box for it but I do have the uncracked gray box and white shipping box if someone wants it. It is unturned! There is one for sale on Gunsinternational for 950 (used) The box in 1990+ for this gun said 850+ Then. I'll take less than 800 if anyone is serious.


I have an 1860 Pietta fluted army w/ white sim grips bought thru Taylors. I smoothed out hammer channels and fired 6 rounds then cleaned. That gun is either mine or yours if you want to negotiate

The J H Dance is new in box. Cabella has it for 240+/-. Make offer

How about a new in box 1851 uberti Navy? They sell for 300+/-

I'll sell it at my cost or buy a box to hide it in

A 3rd gen unfired Colt Walker must be something. 150 aniversary issue! Be glad to negotiate that one too for less than appraised value.

Hey I feel better now Doc got me well

How about 3 2nd gen colts in their boxes. Don't mind negotiating them either?

Pocket
Police 36
51 Navy w/ papers and colt box

I ain't selling since this is not a BUY or Sell thread. Just lettin yu know what I might want to give or trade

WBH

[DG45]

I think in some locales there's probably still a market for a local store selling a Pietta gun in a box at a higher price than it sells for on-line, because there is still a segment of the market that's not internet savvy, but the market is probably half what it was 10 years ago and shrinking rapidly as more and more people become internet buyers.

However, the future is bleak for any brick and mortar store that does little more than sell inventoried merchandise for cash that can be purchased off the internet for less.

There is one thing I learned a long time ago and that is that you can sell a lot of anything, and sell it for a lot more money too, if you take some risks and offer very generous credit terms. But check your customers credit worthiness closely before you give credit. People who have always paid their bills usually always do pay them unless some financial catastrophe befalls them. Even people who have a bad reputation for bill paying will usually pay some people on time, if they've bought something from on credit that they want to keep and the seller filed a financing statement on it and has an enforceable lien on it until its paid. I also learned that we good ol boy rednecks generally love our old trucks, and often own them own them free and clear even if we're in all other ways bankrupt. IAnd if you know some of my cousins, and my friends, you know they've got hearts of gold, they'd give you the shirt off their back, they'd still stand up for America right by you today, and they'd be the guys you'd want in your foxhole with you, and you'd really like em, man, but hey, I have to admit that a few of them are not the greatest credit risks. But if they think you're going to take their old truck if you don't get your money, I'll bet you'd get paid. Of course it takes a certain amount of moxie to collect money. Not everyone can do it well.

Somebody else mentioned a black powder shooting range. I'd go a step further and say that if you could sell a black powder shooting experience, with you as the expert in all things black powder, you might have something. Teach black powder classes, show em how to load em, show em how to clean em, offer them a shooting range, credit a certain amount of time they spend shooting on the range toward the price of your high priced guns. Nothing is guaranteed but things probably aren't as hopeless as you think.

One thing that never works though is knocking somebody elses business who's also trying to make a buck.

[Rifleman1776]

When I started my gun shop in Indiana I was in the heart of muzzle loading country and intended to specialize in ml only. But, it took me about one day to figure out I wouldn't survive without an FFL. Trades are a big part of the game. Then I also quickly discovered I could not compete with the big box store down the road on prices with many popular guns. To compete I decided to sell under them and over them and provide services they could not. I specialized in special orders of hard to find items and parts. I hired a gunsmith. It worked. Word of mouth built my trade. I could provide things that couldn't be found anywhere else. And my service was friendly and professional. Big Box doesn't do that.

[Hardy]

Thanks--we offer finance on any gun w/nothing down if you have been a loyal customer. That should be good and no one has let us down. But, when they want us to put one on layaway they come back and we give them their money back--cause they will have sour grapes. Hey--it ain't easy dealing w/public but it it can be fun. I try my best to think of it as a hobby instead of a money maker biz. I guess I was just trying to get feedback on retailing Cabela Piettas since anyone can buy them at same price thru net or just selling things that they can't. Wasn't bashing Cabela. Just trying to get advise on selling b/p -Either buy some from cabela and price them up gently or buy from distributors.

Hawg--I see how you thought I was bashing cabela. But you got me all wrong. Just trying to figure out whether to buy some from them and KEEP retailing them. But again I do know they buy at special prices so they might not be all up to par. Kinda like a landscaper doing 100 yards per week instead of 20---Um-I don't know. I do like that Glassic brass revolver from Taylors though.


We

[zullo74]

Hardy wrote

But again I do know they buy at special prices so they might not be all up to par.

You keep saying that and it just ain't true. They sell the SAME Piettas as everyone else.

[Hawg]

OK Hardy.

[Hardy]

OK Guys---I believe you now--you finally convinced this hard (Hardy) head of mine. Now, I promise to be good if yu don't hang me. I swear

WBH---Back on his feet

[Rifleman1776]

I try my best to think of it as a hobby instead of a money maker biz.

In that case you won't make money. You are a charity.
It would be easier to spend your money on groceries and take those to the local food bank.

[maillemaker]

Even if Cabelas was selling "sub-standard" Pietta or Uberti or whoever guns, the average consumer doesn't know that.

What the consumer sees is "Pietta 1860 Army".

If Bob and Fred and Joe are all selling "Pietta 1860 Army", it all boils down to price.

When you run a business, you have only 3 ways to compete:

Price
Service
Quality

My understanding is that the firearms business is a very low profit-margin business. This is because firearms are basically a commodity item. Dealers buy them at cost, but because there is a limit to how efficient a store they can run they all "bottom out" at about the same level of profit, which, I am told, is not much. I've been told that in order to run a gun store you have to move a tremendous number (can't remember the number anymore) of firearms each month just to keep the lights on.

Unless you can prove and convince potential customers that your product is a higher quality product than what Cabella's sells, you will not be able to compete with them on price or quality. It is as simple as that.

If I recall correctly, I believe Cabela's has an excellent return policy on BP firearms. This is something that virtually no gun store does. Moreover, they have a huge logistical infrastructure allowing them to process orders and returns very efficiently. This means it is going to be very difficult to compete against them on service.

So here's a possibility:

Sell "tuned" firearms. That is, BP pistols that have already been sited in and shown to be bench-rest accurate, with a known charge and bullet size/weight.

That is value you can sell. One of the biggest challenges of BP shooting is developing a bullet and charge that gives consistent results, and then getting the sites modified to bring that group on-target. You can show a picture of the firearm on the web site, combined with a picture of the "proof target". I think lots of people, particularly N-SSA competition shooters, would pay a premium to buy a firearm they don't have to monkey with to get it to shoot right.

Of course, the "problem" here is you will be selling essentially "used" firearms then. So after proofing, you will have to meticulously clean them to like-new state, and people may not tolerate any scuff marks or rubbing of the blueing, as on the cylinder. Perhaps this can be eliminated by using "proof cylinders" that are swapped out for new ones before shipping, assuming this does not affect accuracy.

I bought a used P1853 Euroarms musket on Gunbroker for $490. But I've now spent probably another $800 trying to make it shoot right, including buying a replacement Whitacre barrel. I would definitely pay a premium for a BP weapon that was proven accurate.

[DG45]

Price, Service, Quality, ummm. Better add Terms to that list.

Credit moves more merchandise than price, service or quality put together.

I just have to laugh when somebody says "my business is unable to compete with Cabela's on the price of a Pietta replica", and I say "have you tried offering credit" and he says he offers it to customers who've "proved their loyalty", and on top of that he offers layaways, where he takes the customers money a little at a time but holds on to the product until the merchandise is paid for. Now that's funny.

I also think the guy who said he learned Day 1 that he needed a FFL if he was going to survive in the gun business, and the guy who said trade-ins are a part of doing business know exactly what they're talking about.

I know a guy who has an FFL, takes trade ins ,and resells them and offers nothing down, revolving credit terms i.e. what I jokingly tell him are "lay you away" terms; not layaway; because you're still paying him when they lay you away, and he's doing very well. I'm not absolutely sure he does this in every case, but I think he files a UCC lien (financing statement) on all credit sales to protect himself until the gun is paid for, and I think he adds in a fee for doing the paperwork on that). The customer gets up to a year to pay and the store probably makes twice as much on interest and late fees and such as what it makes on guns.

[maillemaker]

When I ran a business I figured if people wanted credit they could use a credit card.

What I wanted, and needed, was cash up front to make the business go.

Moreover, running a credit business can end up being a business in and of itself.

I'm sure there is money to be made doing it, but there is also risk.

Steve

[pohill]

Why not sell on Gunbroker or Auction Arms? I've only bought two guns on an auction - I like to handle a gun before I buy it - but I've sold a bunch in the past year and I've done well. But I only sell to pay for my next purchase, not to make a living.

[maillemaker]

Seems to me that Gunbroker has just helped to commoditize firearm sales. You'll be competing against everyone else out there selling the exact same thing.