Folks are asking me what one thing I learned at LFI about shooting?

Threefeathers · October 27, 2008, 11:59 PM

Simple. Dry fire until your fingers bleed.

David Armstrong · October 28, 2008, 10:23 AM

If you'll wear batting gloves those fingers won't bleed nearly as easily.

Glenn E. Meyer · October 28, 2008, 10:54 AM

Not me, but don't use a 41 Mag revolver for Stressfire - by the end of the day, that guy had his hands split down through the skin to the raw meat. :barf:

Worse than simple blisters and blood.

I shot a Glock 9mm.

Stevie-Ray · October 30, 2008, 09:37 PM

How many rounds do you have to shoot?

Threefeathers · October 30, 2008, 11:05 PM

You'll shoot 500 in drills at LFI. Dry fire the technique you learned the day before, say Chapman technique using High and Low kneeling, using one rapid mag change each time. Get snap caps and paint the mags you use for drills so only snap caps get into them.
I have 8 high caps per gun, and 5 10 rounders for drills. I keep 2 10 rounders loaded with snap caps and nothing else gets into those mags.
I've carefully purchased 8-10 high caps for every gun I have and every gun I might want to purchase in the future.

Stevie-Ray · October 30, 2008, 11:54 PM

Wow, I think Glenn's got the right idea. Sounds like a 9mm kind of course.

Threefeathers · October 31, 2008, 08:13 PM

Sort of funny, the first day I used a 357Sig P2K. I learned my lesson, Day's 2,3,4,5, a P2K in 9mm using WWB. I want to go 357 Sig as a carry round but don't think I'll shoot more than 50 rounds a day with it.

HoraceHogsnort · October 31, 2008, 09:00 PM

Was anybody using a revolver?

Threefeathers · October 31, 2008, 11:53 PM

Yes, Ayoob most of the time and 2 other fellows part of the time. You can use a different weapon each day if you want. I actually used a Sig 229 in 357& sig for one stage the second day.

Brit · November 2, 2008, 05:01 AM

Bernie, a friend, asked me about going to Massab Ayoob's Stress Fire, back in(1992?) I told him what I thought was true, not a course to teach more than I had already taught him, reference marksmanship, but he will enjoy it.

He came back quite surprised, shooting? he was in the top 5 shooters, right from the start, but enjoyed the war stories, the Cops he met, and the law pertaining to gun fights (Keep quiet till you are lawyered up? Yes I preached that as well!) the Glock 17 he took never missed a beat, he did see people with guns still in the box! They had problems.

Threefeathers · November 2, 2008, 10:12 AM

Actually once you have taken the course he advises you not to keep quiet until you lawyare up. He has a very specific set of satements you say and then reslectively tell the police you won't make statements unill yout lawyer's are there.
But, unless you take and pass the course or a similiar one that is specific for a shooting then it is best to clam up.

**Frank Ettin** · November 2, 2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

...Sounds like a 9mm kind of course....

I shot a 9mm, but I don't think a .45 ACP or .40 S&W would be a problem. There was less actual shooting than some other courses I've taken. Mas would remind us from time to time that the class was "a major in when with a minor in how."

At the same time, I don't think I'd be anxious to use a .41 or .44 Magnum, or even a .357 Magnum in a K-frame (and certainly not in one of the new, lightweight frame S&Ws).

But the shooting we did do was an excellent review of some of the basics as well as introducing some new (to me) techniques and perspectives. I certainly learned some new things about shooting with one hand. Mas also suggests that we develop familiarity and competence with the three major stances: Weaver; Chapman; and Isosceles. While each of us may have a preferred stance, the ability to use one of the others which may be better suited to a particular situation could come in handy.

I'd tell you more, but we were required to promise to never reveal the details of the secret handshake.

FWIW, it's an excellent class and I heartily recommend it.

Stevie-Ray · November 2, 2008, 08:40 PM

Can you use, say, a pin gun with reloads? Or is it stock weapon with factory fodder only?

**Frank Ettin** · November 2, 2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevie-Ray

Can you use, say, a pin gun with reloads? ....

I'm not sure why you would want to. But in any case, I'm not sure that anyone in this thread so far could give you a definitive answer.

But if you want to sign up, why not just ask Mas? He's pretty approachable, and I believe he's a member here.

Deaf Smith · November 2, 2008, 09:12 PM

Guys,

The LFI-1 course where over 500 rounds is shot is not something that will wear you out, .45, .40 , or 9mm, on the range. It's 40+ hours, about 1/2 on law inside and outside the court.

While I'm not bubbly on the horse stance to deliver fire, as part of LFI-1, I did what I was shown to do and qualified using that stance at the specified range. Almost cleaned the target but the Sig 239 I used with the DA/SA trigger dropped one bullet low. My fault. I'm a Glock man and I dipped one low on DA.

I used the 9mm 239 (worked perfect) and lots of others used .45s. Oh, the only one I saw with real problems had a Kahr 'Micro' .40. It died early in the practice session.

Threefeathers · November 2, 2008, 09:15 PM

Actually I think the answer would be no. Fiddletown and I both watched one of our class members who had a custom 1911 have a bunch of FTF's. I picked up one of his unfired rounds and saw it was a reload. I think Mas may have said something quietly to him because he showed up with WWB then next day. I think he also ditched that gun and had his spare which worked perfectly. (older Colt series 70 worked.)
The course outline says Carry gun is preferred and no reloads. I brought 1K WWB 9mm, 200 357Sig, 200 40 Smith, 100 45ACP. I also had 5 handguns stuffed in my iShot large bag and could have given folks a spare H K or Sig, or Colt 1911 that works.
I was so ready it was sickning. Rucksack with 5 nes MRE's. Cleaning kit for everyone if needed. Target pasters, binos, many spare mags, condoms, 5 notebooks, 2 weatherproof notebooks, 2 extra copies of In the Gravest Extreme, 10 pens of different colors, camara, video camera. Hell, everything I used to take on a deployment.

Stevie-Ray · November 4, 2008, 09:39 PM

Quote:

The course outline says Carry gun is preferred and no reloads.

Aah, copy that. Thanks for the info.

Mas Ayoob · November 4, 2008, 10:05 PM

Stevie-Ray, we strongly encourage folks to bring the gun they carry, or use for home defense.

If that's a gun with a recoil compensation device, it's OK. I have a few "carry comps" that I've carried on the street myself.

The "no reloads" thing is if you're one of the rare students who needs to borrow a firearm from us. If it's your gun, reloads are OK. You'll get the most out of it, though, if you duplicate the recoil/muzzle blast/trajectory of what you load with "for real." And, as Threefeathers noted, we do see more malfunctions with reloads than with factory ammo.

Cordially,
Mas

Brit · November 5, 2008, 06:56 AM

Mas,

You missed a very good match on Sunday. The rain we could have done without (Glocks don't rust) Mike H.

MikeKeyW · November 5, 2008, 07:32 AM

I took the course some 25 years ago (Mas must be getting old...

) and one student used a Beretta or Browning hi cap 380. I used my Python on one and a 1911 on the LFI-II. Mas used "Fluffy", a mod 66 with the magna-trigger safety system.
What I remember most was terminal ballistics, if someone tells you suck on a shotgun barrel or makes you kneel, go for broke. I think I learned as much about avoiding a situation requiring use of lethal force as actually using it. I can still remember the grimace Mas would get on his face every time he'd repeat "Shoot for the center of Mass".

Threefeathers · November 5, 2008, 10:31 PM

I wonder if someday we should have a giant reunion for all of us who made it through LFI. Maybe the whole shibang, party, dancing girls, memory lane, match current to ex-wives.

MikeKeyW · November 6, 2008, 03:41 AM

Now that's a thought! Along with our CCW's bring NFA'a, there's just something about Hooters girls and machine guns, oh, and chicken wings, yea, and Wild Turkey for after the cold steel gets put away for the night.

Stevie-Ray · November 8, 2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

The "no reloads" thing is if you're one of the rare students who needs to borrow a firearm from us. If it's your gun, reloads are OK. You'll get the most out of it, though, if you duplicate the recoil/muzzle blast/trajectory of what you load with "for real." And, as Threefeathers noted, we do see more malfunctions with reloads than with factory ammo.

Mas, I've actually had far more success with my own reloads (no failures) than with factory ammo. (some failures) Though I can say that with premium defense ammo, I have had zero failures also. Soon, I'll work up loads that mimic my pet defense ammo, and if not entirely successful, then when the time comes, I'll chuck the reloads in favor of factory fodder. At any rate, I'll bring my carry weapons only. Now, to fly it past the wife.

Thanks, Mas

Mas Ayoob · November 8, 2008, 09:28 PM

No problem, Stevie-Ray. Look forward to meeting you if and when you can make it.

Threefeathers · November 8, 2008, 11:25 PM

Stevie, if you can bring your wife. I have been through mucho military training in my life and thought I was going only for the legal stuff. I was wrong, I learned something every day that changed my shooting. I dry fired before, but peobably only made it useful for rifle. I just finished my daily drills with holds and today did turns. I was in Shotokan Karate for so long that I simply use the same footwork and add the proper hold. To that I added high kneel tonight and took a note from one of Ed Stocks drills in the proper kneeling near the wall of a room. (Since I taught Ed how to do it in the 70's (I had been in Berlin Brigade for 3 years and we developed QCB) I ran the 297th through the drills when we were in Coalville one year.) I was happy to see that Ed further developed the technique.
Mas, I'm looking forward to seeing you and Gail this week.

October 27, 2008, 11:59 PM	#1
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	Folks are asking me what one thing I learned at LFI about shooting? Simple. Dry fire until your fingers bleed.

October 28, 2008, 10:54 AM	#3
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Not me, but don't use a 41 Mag revolver for Stressfire - by the end of the day, that guy had his hands split down through the skin to the raw meat. :barf: Worse than simple blisters and blood. I shot a Glock 9mm. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

October 30, 2008, 09:37 PM	#4
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	How many rounds do you have to shoot? __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

October 30, 2008, 11:54 PM	#6
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	Wow, I think Glenn's got the right idea. Sounds like a 9mm kind of course. __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

November 2, 2008, 05:01 AM	#10
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	Shooting? Bernie, a friend, asked me about going to Massab Ayoob's Stress Fire, back in(1992?) I told him what I thought was true, not a course to teach more than I had already taught him, reference marksmanship, but he will enjoy it. He came back quite surprised, shooting? he was in the top 5 shooters, right from the start, but enjoyed the war stories, the Cops he met, and the law pertaining to gun fights (Keep quiet till you are lawyered up? Yes I preached that as well!) the Glock 17 he took never missed a beat, he did see people with guns still in the box! They had problems.

October 28, 2008, 10:23 AM	#2
David Armstrong Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: SW Louisiana Posts: 2,289	If you'll wear batting gloves those fingers won't bleed nearly as easily.

October 30, 2008, 11:05 PM	#5
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	You'll shoot 500 in drills at LFI. Dry fire the technique you learned the day before, say Chapman technique using High and Low kneeling, using one rapid mag change each time. Get snap caps and paint the mags you use for drills so only snap caps get into them. I have 8 high caps per gun, and 5 10 rounders for drills. I keep 2 10 rounders loaded with snap caps and nothing else gets into those mags. I've carefully purchased 8-10 high caps for every gun I have and every gun I might want to purchase in the future.

October 31, 2008, 08:13 PM	#7
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	Sort of funny, the first day I used a 357Sig P2K. I learned my lesson, Day's 2,3,4,5, a P2K in 9mm using WWB. I want to go 357 Sig as a carry round but don't think I'll shoot more than 50 rounds a day with it.

October 31, 2008, 09:00 PM	#8
HoraceHogsnort Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Stanislaus Co., Mexifornia Posts: 615	Was anybody using a revolver?

October 31, 2008, 11:53 PM	#9
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	Yes, Ayoob most of the time and 2 other fellows part of the time. You can use a different weapon each day if you want. I actually used a Sig 229 in 357& sig for one stage the second day.

November 2, 2008, 10:12 AM	#11
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	Actually once you have taken the course he advises you not to keep quiet until you lawyare up. He has a very specific set of satements you say and then reslectively tell the police you won't make statements unill yout lawyer's are there. But, unless you take and pass the course or a similiar one that is specific for a shooting then it is best to clam up.

November 2, 2008, 08:40 PM	#13
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	Can you use, say, a pin gun with reloads? Or is it stock weapon with factory fodder only? __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

November 2, 2008, 09:12 PM	#15
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	Guys, The LFI-1 course where over 500 rounds is shot is not something that will wear you out, .45, .40 , or 9mm, on the range. It's 40+ hours, about 1/2 on law inside and outside the court. While I'm not bubbly on the horse stance to deliver fire, as part of LFI-1, I did what I was shown to do and qualified using that stance at the specified range. Almost cleaned the target but the Sig 239 I used with the DA/SA trigger dropped one bullet low. My fault. I'm a Glock man and I dipped one low on DA. I used the 9mm 239 (worked perfect) and lots of others used .45s. Oh, the only one I saw with real problems had a Kahr 'Micro' .40. It died early in the practice session. __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

November 2, 2008, 09:15 PM	#16
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	Actually I think the answer would be no. Fiddletown and I both watched one of our class members who had a custom 1911 have a bunch of FTF's. I picked up one of his unfired rounds and saw it was a reload. I think Mas may have said something quietly to him because he showed up with WWB then next day. I think he also ditched that gun and had his spare which worked perfectly. (older Colt series 70 worked.) The course outline says Carry gun is preferred and no reloads. I brought 1K WWB 9mm, 200 357Sig, 200 40 Smith, 100 45ACP. I also had 5 handguns stuffed in my iShot large bag and could have given folks a spare H K or Sig, or Colt 1911 that works. I was so ready it was sickning. Rucksack with 5 nes MRE's. Cleaning kit for everyone if needed. Target pasters, binos, many spare mags, condoms, 5 notebooks, 2 weatherproof notebooks, 2 extra copies of In the Gravest Extreme, 10 pens of different colors, camara, video camera. Hell, everything I used to take on a deployment.

November 4, 2008, 10:05 PM	#18
Mas Ayoob Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Posts: 249	Stevie-Ray, we strongly encourage folks to bring the gun they carry, or use for home defense. If that's a gun with a recoil compensation device, it's OK. I have a few "carry comps" that I've carried on the street myself. The "no reloads" thing is if you're one of the rare students who needs to borrow a firearm from us. If it's your gun, reloads are OK. You'll get the most out of it, though, if you duplicate the recoil/muzzle blast/trajectory of what you load with "for real." And, as Threefeathers noted, we do see more malfunctions with reloads than with factory ammo. Cordially, Mas

November 5, 2008, 06:56 AM	#19
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	Mas, You missed a very good match on Sunday. The rain we could have done without (Glocks don't rust) Mike H.

November 5, 2008, 07:32 AM	#20
MikeKeyW Junior Member Join Date: October 12, 2008 Posts: 11	Shoot the center of MASs... I took the course some 25 years ago (Mas must be getting old...) and one student used a Beretta or Browning hi cap 380. I used my Python on one and a 1911 on the LFI-II. Mas used "Fluffy", a mod 66 with the magna-trigger safety system. What I remember most was terminal ballistics, if someone tells you suck on a shotgun barrel or makes you kneel, go for broke. I think I learned as much about avoiding a situation requiring use of lethal force as actually using it. I can still remember the grimace Mas would get on his face every time he'd repeat "Shoot for the center of Mass".

November 5, 2008, 10:31 PM	#21
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	I wonder if someday we should have a giant reunion for all of us who made it through LFI. Maybe the whole shibang, party, dancing girls, memory lane, match current to ex-wives.

November 6, 2008, 03:41 AM	#22
MikeKeyW Junior Member Join Date: October 12, 2008 Posts: 11	Now that's a thought! Along with our CCW's bring NFA'a, there's just something about Hooters girls and machine guns, oh, and chicken wings, yea, and Wild Turkey for after the cold steel gets put away for the night.

November 8, 2008, 09:28 PM	#24
Mas Ayoob Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Posts: 249	No problem, Stevie-Ray. Look forward to meeting you if and when you can make it.

November 8, 2008, 11:25 PM	#25
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	Stevie, if you can bring your wife. I have been through mucho military training in my life and thought I was going only for the legal stuff. I was wrong, I learned something every day that changed my shooting. I dry fired before, but peobably only made it useful for rifle. I just finished my daily drills with holds and today did turns. I was in Shotokan Karate for so long that I simply use the same footwork and add the proper hold. To that I added high kneel tonight and took a note from one of Ed Stocks drills in the proper kneeling near the wall of a room. (Since I taught Ed how to do it in the 70's (I had been in Berlin Brigade for 3 years and we developed QCB) I ran the 297th through the drills when we were in Coalville one year.) I was happy to see that Ed further developed the technique. Mas, I'm looking forward to seeing you and Gail this week.