Mauser 98K vs Mosin Nagant 91/30

[tahoe2]

I have 4 mausers; 2 Spanish(1 rifle 1 carbine), 1 Yugo, & 1 German 98k.
Love them mausers, well balanced, accurate, and 100% reliable and plenty
of power. 2-7x57mm and 2-8x57mm. the yugo is sporterized (stock, trigger, scope, low bolt handle & safety) 1-1/2" @ 100 yards, the rest are in military guise 2"-5" open sights @ 100 yards , all with handloads (no hot loads).
Never shot a Mosin, but those that I know, who have, love them.

[Hawg]

Mauser hands down. The MN is clunky, chunky and crude.

[sc928porsche]

I own a lot of mausers - 91's, 93's, 95's, 96's, and 98"s. I also own some mosins - 91/30's and 44's. The mosins are crude but simple and reliable. The mausers are much more refined but still very reliable. If price were of no concern, the obvious choice would be the mauser. There is good reason why so many rifles are built from their design (both military and civilian).

[FrankenMauser]

The best all around is the best all around. You will have to figure that out. Everything is a factor in a gun. That's why some choose the AR and others the AK.

"Best all around" seems like a simple concept, but military requirements (and military "best") are vastly different than civilian requirements (and civilian "best").

Best military: Mosin.
Best civilian: Mauser.

[Gunplummer]

Why don't you add the Arisaka to your paper? The Russian bolt is a nightmare compared to an Arisaka bolt. Most of the ones I have shot that were 1943 and older shot pretty good. The Arisaka is just as strong as a Russian and weighs a lot less. I just sold a type 99 at an auction that was reworked during the Korean war by the U.S. to 30.06. The Koreans could not deal with complicated guns like the M-1 so they reworked thousands of Arisakas. The Russians actually bought Arisakas and I think England may have at one time also because I have some old Knyoch (spelling?) military ammo in 6.5 Japanese. The Arisaka is the easiest of all three to sporterize and throw a scope on. If you look at all three, the Russian does not have a lot going for it. I vote Mauser-Arisaka-Russian

[hornetguy]

Why don't we do a list of "known" issues with both designs?

Mosin is known to have trouble feeding, due to the rimmed case. There are fixes, but it is a known problem.
Mosin is known to have accuracy issues if the bayonet is not mounted and extended (with some models)

Mauser.... I don't know of any "known" issues with it. It feeds cartridges like butter, no matter how energetically (or not) that the bolt is cycled...and accuracy is not dependent on any accessories being mounted or not..

Controlled round feeding and an extractor that grabs a HUGE amount of rim should make it quite a bit more reliable under battle conditions.
In "dangerous" situations, the Mauser style or its variants are nearly always the choice. Dangerous game rifles (bolt action) nearly always require controlled round feeding and a mauser style claw extractor. I have NEVER heard of a dangerous game rifle being built on a Mosin action.

Like I stated earlier, I really like the Mosin, but if I had a choice between those two rifles to carry into combat, I would choose the Mauser everytime.

[hornetguy]

I don't have any experience with the Arisaka rifle, but I've heard that in testing to destruction, it was one of the strongest actions found.

[Gunplummer]

It was the steel they used. I think the Chec Mausers were the only WWII rifles with a better grade steel. Some of you Mauser types might know if it was the Chec's or the Polish Mausers that had special tool steel receivers, I am not sure anymore which it was. Other than that, the steel and heat treating process seems about the same for Mauser or Russian receivers. Nothing wrong with it. The case hardening makes the Mauser and Russian more resistant to abrasive wear and does make the action smoother.

[Bamashooter]

I have a Hungarian M-44 thats a beautiful mosin nagant. I did a homemade bedding job on it and even though the mauser is more refined and generally accepted as the better rifle I would put the M-44 against any mauser in the accuracy dept. Its that good of a shooter.

[meatgrinder42]

K98, there is a reason the Mauser's action made all others at the time obsolete and is the most copied action in the world. It's action has an extra locking lug, the long claw extractor which also helps with controlled feeding, oiling/failed cartridge gas ports which divert the gas into the magazine vs. along the bolt's length into the shooter's face, and the three position safety. I would also add the bent bolt handle but that's more of a personal liking.

I'm not saying the M91 is a bad rifle, I've owned one and it was fun to take out to the range but I hated the sights.

People keep saying the M/N is easier to disassemble than the Mauser. How do you figure? 99% of bolt actions disassemble the same, pull the bolt catch and remove the bolt from the rear. The bolt is harder to take apart but you don't need to in order to oil it, via the two 'failed cartridge' gas reliefs in the bolt's body.

To me it's a hands down Mauser, I would have no problem carrying a Kar98 into battle in WW2.

[FrankenMauser]

Mosin is known to have trouble feeding, due to the rimmed case. There are fixes, but it is a known problem.
Mosin is known to have accuracy issues if the bayonet is not mounted and extended (with some models)

Mauser.... I don't know of any "known" issues with it. It feeds cartridges like butter, no matter how energetically (or not) that the bolt is cycled...and accuracy is not dependent on any accessories being mounted or not..

Malfunctioning Mosins have trouble feeding. A properly functioning Mosin feeds better than a Mauser (every case is in exactly the same position, before being pushed into the chamber).

Mauser accuracy is dependent upon proper inletting for the stepped barrel. Take any shortcuts, and the POI starts to walk, as the barrel heats up.
And feeding can take a quick turn for the worse, when dirt gets into the magazine box (usually causing more issues when feeding from the left, than the right).
Mausers should also be considered incapable of being single-loaded with any reasonable speed. The claw extractor was not designed to snap over cartridge rims, with any regularity. As such, cartridges must be single-loaded into the magazine. The Mosin does not suffer from the same issue.


They're both great rifles, in their own right. ...But they're very different rifles, designed for very different usage and maintenance.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Ever hear of the Tkiv 85? It's a modern sniper's rifle, but uses old receivers. Very precise.

It's a Mosin-Nagant.

Made to the same quality (say, pre-WWII MN91/30 vs M98), the Mosin-Nagant will usually beat the Mauser in the accuracy/precision department if one can get past the MN's trigger.

Additionally, the MN is conscripted-peasant-proof, and dang near indestructible.

Sticky bolt is caused by cosmoline. Clean it out.

Either will shoot more precisely than the operator, but the precision edge does usually go the Mosin-Nagant (properly manufactured).

Reliability may go to the Mauser due to its large extractor claw and controlled-feed design. This is theoretical, however. The Mosin-Nagant is put together in such a way that the push-feed does not cause malfunctions.

Massage the trigger, wrap the barrel in oiled felt, change out the sights to something better, and proceed to outshoot modern sporter rifles.

Josh

[ohen cepel]

I have fired them side by side and prefer the Mauser much more than the Mosin because of the ergonomics of the Mauser. The bolt operates much easier/better for me, especially from the bench. The safety is also easier to use on the Mauser and the overall length (the M91) of the Mauser makes it much easier to handle/maneuver.

The Mauser went on to be come a highly successful and copied action used by many companies and countries all over the world. I'm not aware of the Mosin having any commercial success and their military contracts were to states with no other options (many puppets).

For me, it's the Mauser hand's down.

[hornetguy]

Massage the trigger, wrap the barrel in oiled felt, change out the sights to something better, and proceed to outshoot modern sporter rifles.

Perhaps that's true, but put the same amount of effort into a Mauser (which is unnecessary, by the way) and you would probably get a corresponding improvement.
I believe the OP wanted to discuss the two rifles as they were put into service... not what they COULD become with lots of TLC.

Wrap the barrel in oiled felt? What?? Where do you even FIND oiled felt? How do you keep the oil from getting all over everything? What does it do? Do you wrap it tightly? Counter-clockwise? How often do you have to change the oil?

Seriously... still, hands down, the Mauser. AND, I'll still take my Mosin out nearly every time I go to the range. Along with my Swedish mauser deer rifle, and my 1909 Argentine mauser .35 Whelen elk rifle. Hopefully, someday, I'll even get to USE it on an elk

[Josh Smith]

Perhaps that's true, but put the same amount of effort into a Mauser (which is unnecessary, by the way) and you would probably get a corresponding improvement.
I believe the OP wanted to discuss the two rifles as they were put into service... not what they COULD become with lots of TLC.

Wrap the barrel in oiled felt? What?? Where do you even FIND oiled felt? How do you keep the oil from getting all over everything? What does it do? Do you wrap it tightly? Counter-clockwise? How often do you have to change the oil?

If you were to shoot pre-WWII specimens, one of each, chances are good the Mosin-Nagant would have the edge right from the factory (and I say pre-WWII because quality was going to crap on both sides, especially from '42 on).

As for the felt thing:

1. Find felt at Walmart or your fabric store of choice.

2. Lightly oil it.

3. Tightly wrap it around the barrel until it fits tightly between the handguard and lower forearm.

Floating a barrel is a good thing -- IF it's not a pencil-thin military barrel. If it is a military barrel, you want to try to make it one with the handguard to eliminate harmonics as much as possible. I use rubberized cork gasket material. The Soviet Snipers used felt -- same idea.

In fact, many German snipers tossed their 'scoped K98s in favor of the Mosin-Nagant sniper's rifle when fighting over that way. A bit more precise and not nearly so many problems in inclement weather as the Mauser.

The Mauser does have improved ergonomics and a stronger extractor, but that's really about it.

Josh

[Webleymkv]

Assuming we're talking about a Kar98k pattern rifle (I would include the Czech VZ-24 and Yugo M48 in this category), I'd say it's six in one hand and half a dozen in the other. Both rifles have proven themselves to be boringly reliable, both are more accurate than most shooters are capable of appreciating, and the difference in terminal performance between 7.62x54R and 7.92x57 is negligable. I find the Mauser to have a more easily manipulated safety and it is smoother to load with stripper clips. The Mosin-Nagant, on the other hand, seems to me to have a smoother bolt throw and iron sights which I can see better. While the Mosin is much longer, it doesn't seem to be as muzzle-heavy as I would expect and thus both rifles balance about equally well in the hand.

[Jimro]

The Tkiv 85 was a sniper rifle only used by Finland. The vast majority of Mosin sniper rifles were on the PU pattern.

However, the Mauser is not without it's sniper brethren. The C3, Parker Hale M85, and Israeli Mauser are also still in use as sniper rifles. The Norse still use a Mauser based (Santa Barbara action if I remember correctly) sniper rifle.

And heavy barreled M98 "sniper" rifles are still being manufactured for public consumption by Zastava. I don't know of any current manufacture of Mosin pattern rifles.

That being said, the Canadians have been retiring the C3, the Brits moved on to the Accuracy Internation platform, the Finns moved on to the Sako TRG, and the Israelis relegated the Mauser to a reserve Police unit.

So when it comes to which is better, the Mauser is still being manufactured, and the Mosin is not. The market has spoken.

Jimro

[Gunplummer]

The Germans "tossed their Mausers in favor of Russian rifles". Where do people come up with this nonsense? Running out of 8mm ammo might be the cause of that rumor. Way too many people watching movies and "Myth Busters". The truth is the Russians wanted to dump that rifle not long after it was put into service. With internal problems, being broke and getting into wars they just could not manage it. Look at the junk they came up with when they tried to make a semi-auto. The Russians had such a stock pile of rimmed ammo they tried to design the rifle around the cartridge. Their bolt actions are the same way, designed around the cartridge. There is nothing special about Russian rifles, they are around so long because it was not practical to get rid of them. Most other countries got rid of the rimmed cartridge as fast as they could.

[Bamashooter]

I have a 1929 Izhevsk Hex reciever, 1953 Hungarian, A 91/59 made from a 1942 Izhevsk rifle. The '29 and Hungarian are very well built rifles. Fit and finish is good, not like wartime made rifles. The 91/59 is very light and accurate. Good carbine. The Hungarian is a little more accurate but alot heavier. I always have fun shooting them. So does alot of other folks. Fun factor is high.

I like Fabrique Nationale mausers and this one in 7.62 Nato would be a good one to have in the collection.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=247090530

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

The Mosin-Nagant is still being manufactured. Give me time and I'll find the link between building sights and messing with this Gewehr 88.

Josh

[Gunplummer]

Anybody know for sure if the Finns manufactured Russian receivers? I believe they " inherited" so much Russian equipment that they just adopted it for economic reasons.

[44 AMP]

The Mauser action had been made in dozens of cartridges, millions of sporter rifles are patterened on, if not made directly from the Mauser action. I have had Mauser sporters in calibers ranging from .22-250 to .458 Win Mag.

The Moisin Nagant action has been made in only one caliber, and the only sporters made on it are the ones done my individuals.

I find the russian action to be clunky and awkward.

Both rifles in military trim served well, and both are capable of adequate accuracy. Comparisons between individual rifles only tell you about the individual rifles. One cannot truthfully say one is more accurate than the other, just because the one you have shoots better than the other.

The Mauser is more refined, and vastly more versatile when you go beyond straight military issue.

One reason there is a myth about the Mauser not being good in the extreme cold of the Eastern Front is because of the oil the Germans used. Not the rifle itself. What still works ok around freezing can turn to glue at 20+ below zero. The Soviets had extensive experience in this area that the Germans did not. The Germans learned, and compensated, but it took some time, so the legend got traction.

Personally, and speaking only of rifles in issue condition, I find the Mauser to be easier to use, especially those models with a bent bolt handle.

[TCL]

Josh - that's the first I've ever heard of the Mosin still being in production. Where are they still being made?

Gunplummer - Finland did not manufacture receivers. All of their Mosins were built on Russian/Soviet receivers. They inherited a large quantity of Mosins from Russia; they also inherited many Mausers and even some former Austro-Hungarian Mannlichers at the end of WWI, and did a lot of horse-trading with other newly-independent European countries during the 1920s and 30s. Most of these new countries had a mix of these weapons; some standardized on Mausers, some standardized on Mannlichers, and some had a little of everything, but only Finland standardized on the Mosin.

An example of some of the travels these Mosins saw, from my collection: I have a Finnish 91/30 with a 1944 Tikkakoski barrel and a 1914 Izhevsk receiver marked AZF, which is an Austrian arsenal mark. The original rifle, either an M91 infantry rifle or an M91 Dragoon, was captured by the Austrians and overhauled during the war. There's no telling where it was when the Hapsburg Empire collapsed, but somehow the rifle - or maybe just the receiver - ended up in Finland, where eventually the receiver was used to build my shiny like-new 91/30.

[Jimro]

Josh, you posted this over at "gun and game" http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/mos...gants-sks.html and even there you can't do anything but point to a company selling "sporterized" mosins.

Seriously, no one is making new Mosin Nagant receivers, it isn't economically rewarding when you can buy the whole dang rifle for less cost. Russians may be new at capitalism, but they aren't stupid.

Jimro

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