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December 6, 2011, 02:41 PM | #1 |
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Richmond Man Killed With Own Gun While Open Carrying
According to the Richmond Times, 48yr old Blaine Tyler was open carrying a handgun when he was attacked by two 16yr olds who removed his firearm and shot him with it. The firearm was used in another robbery/fatality a few hours later.
Prosecuting attorney Andy Johnson says that the two teens arrived on a scooter, followed Tyler into the gas station/convenience store at 8:15 p.m., walked in and immediately grabbed his gun and shot him with it. A different account has Tyler chasing one of the teens inside the store and the teen shooting him during the resulting struggle. Either way, I thought the story might serve as a good basis for discussion of retention tactics for those who open carry. What might have changed the outcome of this story? |
December 6, 2011, 03:00 PM | #2 |
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I would think if you are going to carry, open or concealed, you should get some training in weapon retention techniques. Not sure what happened with this guy though, for all I know, the same exact thing could happen to me.
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December 6, 2011, 03:03 PM | #3 | |
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I think you might be jumping the gun re the title "killed with his own gun."
The article says, Quote:
Keep us posted. |
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December 6, 2011, 03:09 PM | #4 |
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Concealed Carry vs. Open Carry arguments are like 9mm vs .45 acp arguments, a pointless waste of time.
The real lesson to be learned is situational awareness and avoiding Condition White. To quote Col Jeff Cooper: Condition White - Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me." Mr.Tyler was attacked by two skilled and experienced street criminals and unfortunately lost the fight.
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“If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.” Last edited by 1911Jeeper; December 6, 2011 at 03:15 PM. |
December 6, 2011, 03:14 PM | #5 |
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Without knowing exactly how they went for the gun, it's hard to say. In a struggle, it's difficult to think. Task fixation can get you killed. It's a pity this happened, two lives that did not have to end because of some sociopath teenager.
My personal solution, unsurprisingly, is a knife. Holding your gun in the holster with your right hand, draw a knife in your left hand. "Icepick" grip with the edge towards your wrist. Use it to hook their wrists away before getting some distance and drawing the gun. Yes, it's a perfect scenario, but it's better than panicking. This is a good example of why one should have good open hand skills, or a knife to supplement them.
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December 6, 2011, 03:19 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
The teen went straight for the gun. The gun is specifically what they wanted to steal. A strong argument can be made that if it were concealed, they wouldn't have known he had one.
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December 6, 2011, 03:31 PM | #7 |
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Perhaps I am reading between the lines too much, but it seems that Mr. Tyler had his sidearm taken and then pursued the person who took it. If that is a correct reading, then Tyler was in those few moments in unarmed man pressing an attack on an armed man. However justifiable that may be, it is a bad tactic. If Tyler had an opportunity to get clear of the situation rather than pursue Smith he should have taken it.
The article is so lacking in details about the fight that is hard to discern anything else. For all we know, Tyler made an admirable attempt at retention but was just physically beaten by a person who was stronger, or quicker, or who had a plan that worked before Tyler could react. We don't like to think so, but sometimes that happens. |
December 6, 2011, 03:43 PM | #8 |
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At the very least his gun was stolen from him, and his gun was the target of the theft.
Whether he was subsequently shot with his own gun - is unclear, but also not that important I don't think. If he had been carrying concealed, he probably wouldn't have been targeted. |
December 6, 2011, 03:44 PM | #9 |
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TailGator, I expect you are right.
On a side note, next time I am in Gainesville (probably next year, sometime as we still have friends and family in C FL) I can show you some nifty tricks for keeping a younger, stronger guy from taking your weapon. |
December 6, 2011, 03:44 PM | #10 |
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I'm waiting for someone to chime in "that's why it's important to have a back up !"
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December 6, 2011, 03:47 PM | #11 |
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Loss of the primary weapon is one of the reasons Mas Ayoob gives for why one might carry a BUG.... But Mas also strongly encourages development of SA.
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December 6, 2011, 03:49 PM | #12 |
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On average, (per FBI statistics) 8% of the officers killed on duty by criminals are killed with their own firearm. That is why weapon retention is taught to officers, why their body armor needs to at least be of the protective level of the caliber of their own weapon and why (exposed) duty holsters need to be retention type holsters. Very few CCW holsters have any retention features built in. Not a good idea to wear that type of holster exposed whether you are a civilian or law enforcement.
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December 6, 2011, 04:20 PM | #13 |
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A sad situation for sure. I feel it is best concealed so nobody knows you have it till it is needed. is my opinion only, not mesnt to be a guide for others.
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December 6, 2011, 04:25 PM | #14 |
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I agree - open carry brings with it a high amount of risk. If the grip of your pistol is just sticking out there in the open, it's too easy for somebody to distract you (spill something on you, step on your foot, hand you something and say "you dropped this," etc.) while during that split second his partner grabs your weapon.
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December 6, 2011, 04:28 PM | #15 |
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Here's a follow-up w/ some more info - http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/n...in-ar-1505438/
It's not apparent that the first victim was open carrying, though it seems that his gun may have been visible or perhaps he was known to carry. |
December 6, 2011, 04:34 PM | #16 | ||||
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
1. What would have helped Tyler be more aware of his surroundings in this incident. What do you practice on a daily basis to "train" your awareness? 2. Had Tyler suspected he was going to be attacked or even guessed a gun grab might be imminent, what steps could he take before the fight in a public gas station that would have given him an edge? Quote:
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December 6, 2011, 05:05 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
This is why open carry is for Texas backyard BBQs. |
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December 6, 2011, 06:20 PM | #18 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/pre...killed-in-2010 If you are talking about just dying in the line of duty, then your number is a bit high. It looks like 160 were killed in the line of duty in 2010 (4.4% with their own guns). http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society...ercent-in-2010
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December 6, 2011, 07:06 PM | #19 |
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I agree that whatever happened its a shame. I also agree that situational awareness would have served Mr. Tyler in this situation. I attribute my situational awareness which borders paranoid to my military experience and the fact that I have been robbed once at gunpoint in Birmingham and attempted robbed two other times. Both times the attacker was not successful. You just never know what these young people and strung out people will do these days. You have to be very dilligent.
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December 6, 2011, 07:14 PM | #20 | |
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Quote:
It's somewhat like guerrilla warfare. Blend in with the locals. Don't stand out or draw attention to yourself. Surprise is to your advantage if something starts to go down. Richmond, Va is one of the most violent crime-ridden cities on the East Coast, a place where you live with thugs. If you live. A good place to keep in mind the old saying, "Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet if necessary..." More good advice: http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/...es-gunfighting |
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December 6, 2011, 07:37 PM | #21 |
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It's sad that the victim lost his life, but this is another reason I do not support open carry.
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December 6, 2011, 07:48 PM | #22 |
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I support the right to open carry, but I don't recommend the practice of open carry, and I don't open carry except in a hiking or hunting environment.
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December 6, 2011, 07:50 PM | #23 | |
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Quote:
Having your head on a swivel does no good if it's simultaneously up your nether regions. pax |
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December 6, 2011, 08:33 PM | #24 |
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Weapon Retention
It begins with situational awareness, having the gun totally concealed in a holster that offers some retention value, and then knowing how to defend the gun in the event of an attempted takeaway (gun retention techniques are based upon martial arts skills).
I don't want to step on anybody's rights but the only experience I have with open carry are the employees of a few gun emporiums here in the northeast. They often seemed more interested in strutting around with their fancy handguns than anything else. As this incident demonstrates, open carry can have some minor drawbacks, such as losing your gun and your life to a determined criminal. I will always carry concealed, even if I move to an open carry state. I'm getting older, can no longer wrestle with men half my age and the element of surprise becomes more important in my bag of defensive tricks as the years tick away. I'm now a bit overweight, have white hair and I may look like an easy mark to a street thug. No point in laying all my cards on the table. They may attack the lamb they perceive but the wolf is wearing a disguise.
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December 6, 2011, 09:30 PM | #25 |
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It has been said that if there is somewhere you would not go without a gun, you certainly should not go there with one. There are parts of Minneapolis where I am the minority and in particular a gas station that is a known gang hangout. There have been numerous shootings, fights, and one or two deaths there. I purchase my gas and pop elsewhere.
Anytime I stop and plan leave my vehicle, I assess the behavior, demeanor, and clothing styles of the locals. If anyone is behaving badly or giving me the stink eye, I can always go somewhere else to go pee, gas up, or buy a soda pop. If I don't like the looks of anyone present, I simply continue on, and I have done so more than once. Most two legged predators have warning signs that are easily noted if you are paying attention. If you fail to pay attention (condition white), you risk becoming a victim whether you are armed or not. .
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. Exodus 22:2
“If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.” Last edited by 1911Jeeper; December 7, 2011 at 03:13 PM. |
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