38 special for self defense - Page 3

AK103K · January 19, 2014, 03:24 PM

I wonder how much of this is actually gun driven as well?

I seem to remember that Ayoob had some numbers a while back on revolver hit ratios with supposedly "trained" cops, and they were pretty dismal, something like 25%, which isnt good, especially when you only have 5 or 6 rounds on board. Those ratios jumped up when the cops started switching to autos. I realize the number of rounds fired also jumped up, but actual hits also seemed to be better.

Perhaps this more about perception, and has more to with the results of "misses" than it does with hits.

I dont think theres really a lot of difference between modern loads of the various realistic calibers, but shootabilty does make a big difference, especially if youre not willing to put in the effort to get good with what you carry. Unfortunately, many, if not most of the favored "carry" .38s, come in packages that require a good bit of constant work to be proficient with them, and are equally unfortunate to be brutal to shoot enough to achieve that.

shortwave · January 19, 2014, 03:55 PM

I don't think people are constructed any different today then they were at the conception of the 38SP back in the late 1800's.
And it's done an adequate job for all these years.

Guess it will work till the super-humans come along.

JERRYS. · January 19, 2014, 04:01 PM

the .38spl LHP+p by Remington has a proven street record. not bal-gel, not lab reports, not back yard tests, not hear say, not third hand stories but real life street records, even from snubbies.

shot placement trumps all, and with good shot placement a properly designed and applied .38spl round will do the job.

at times I have to wonder if an OP is asking because they really are lacking the knowledge or trying to get under the skin of those with fragile egos....

is it the best or the worst? no. yet some will always chime in with how a .50cal desert eagle is better or how a Tommy gun carries more rounds..... neither answer the question asked.

P5 Guy · January 19, 2014, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Guess it will work till the super-humans come along.

Antibiotics may have played a part in that, too.

SIGSHR · January 19, 2014, 06:42 PM

The notion that the 38 Special is inadequate for self defense seems to have started in the 1960s with the spread of drug use, and the RNL bullet is a poor choice, but like the 22lr, beats feet, fists and foul language.

deputy tom · January 19, 2014, 07:36 PM

.38 Spl. 158 gr LSWC in duty gun and off duty guns for close to forty years. I'm still here. tom.

ZVP · January 21, 2014, 11:38 PM

The .38S&W Special is an ideal round for protection Heavy or light fast moving H/P's M/E is adequate to incapacitate, with center mass hits Penetration is good through heavy clothing and the cartrige is still small enough that you can carry 100 rounds without a lot of troubles
A wide variety of loads provide serious "social" loadings all the way to light paper punching loads When handloaded good hunting ammo can be assembled as well as inexpensive pratice ammo too!
For more than 100 years it's been a preferred choice for self defense! WHy? because it works!
ZVP

Kilibreaux · January 22, 2014, 06:51 AM

I believe that you should chamber what the gun was made to shoot. If you choose to carry a .357 Magnum then the loads in the gun should be .357 Magnum. Much "hay" is made of shelling out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a "magnum" chambering only to load it with WEAK "standard" loads. For example, why buy a .357 Magnum if you're only going to stick +P .38spl ammo in it? Why spend the cash on a .44 Mag if you're going to stick .44 spl ammo in it?
If I'm carrying a .44 MAGNUM you can be sure it's loaded with MAGNUM ammo! Same with the .357 Magnum.

Despite what so many "experts" will proclaim, the average handgun is marginal for putting a human down. A .44 special delivering 400 lb-ft is nowhere near a .44 Magnum delivering 1,000 lb-ft.

As for the nonsense about "flash and blast" bear in mind that the FLASH of a magnum round being loosed is GREATER and therefore more disorienting on the MUZZLE side of the gun! If you the shooter can be disoriented by flash and blast, IMAGINE how the person on the receiving side is going to feel?

The bottom line is: If you buy a .357 Magnum then LOAD IT WITH .357 Magnum ammo! If you buy a .44 Magnum then load it with full magnum ammo!

Kilibreaux · January 22, 2014, 07:01 AM

The .38 spl from a 1.8" barrel is pretty close to the .380 ACP...and in many loadings superior.
Yes a .357 Magnum beats the .38 spl everyday including Sunday, but it does so with a recoil penalty that many cannot accept.

Any way you slice it, cartridges delivering less than 350 lb-ft of KE are marginal at best, but the trade-off between concealment and power is why we choose to carry a less powerful gun.

Don P · January 22, 2014, 07:37 AM

Quote:

+P ammunition is not necessary in a .38 Special.

Beat me to it Bill. Absolutely correct and IMO poppy cock to +P ammo. 38/357 if you think the 38 is wimpy then carry 357. Again in my opinion the +P market is just that a marketing gimmick. Oh boy that +P is getting and extra 100-200 fps, it's sooooo much better.

Average Joe · January 22, 2014, 06:14 PM

Yes, I carry a .38 special and have for over 40 years.

Bill DeShivs · January 22, 2014, 08:32 PM

But, but,..... regular .38s bounce off winter clothes!

billj47 · January 24, 2014, 10:34 PM

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...7/DSCF0463.jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...7/P1290011.jpg

tomrkba · January 24, 2014, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Today, I got a new 357 snub nose. I shot some 38's out of it today, and despite what everyone else says. I think it'd be a good round for self defense. It's got a pretty good little pop to it, and it penetrates just fine. I think the 357 is better but the 38 will do the job. These weren't even +p either. I shot a tree point blank and it went a good few inches into the wood. Anyone wanna share your thoughts? Do you think it's good for self defense?

The following articles include velocities of bullets fired from a snubby revolver.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38vs357snub.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Feedingthe38Snub.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/H...%20Special.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...mmo%20Test.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/can_less_be_more.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...r%20LSWCHP.htm

tomrkba · January 24, 2014, 10:50 PM

I prefer 357 Magnum for defense over 38 Special. I see no point in using a cartridge that sends a 125 grain bullet at a lower velocity than 124 grain bullet from 9x19mm. For me, "revolver" means "Magnum". If it did not, I would use only semi-automatic pistols.

skoro · January 26, 2014, 08:15 AM

tom -

I doubt anyone would argue that the 38spl is superior to the 357. To do so would be foolish. In my case, I load my 357 HD revolvers with Buffalo Bore's 38+P FBI rounds because the few times I've fired 357s in an enclosed area, my hearing suffered for quite awhile, even though I was wearing ear plugs. The 38+P is a few steps down the loudness ladder and has less muzzle blast to boot. So it's what I like for my personal situation. Each of us has to evaluate our own circumstances and prepare accordingly. The 357 is probably one of the best SD cartridges available. But I feel the 38+P would serve well if needed to stop a home invader.

nate45 · January 26, 2014, 08:22 AM

Not only is the .38 Special adequate for SD, it is, or was for a very long time, the standard, by which the other SD handgun cartridges were judged.

Zathras · January 26, 2014, 11:21 AM

38 Special for me, is all I need. I remember My uncle carried one for years when I was a kid. When I left the peoples republic of NYC in 2004, the first gun I bought was a S&W model 36 J Frame made in 1981,and that's my regular constant carry. I also have a model 10, and I recently acquired a SS Model 60 38 for $200.00 . I have other calibers, but I always stick with the good old 38 special.

Yankee Doodle · January 28, 2014, 09:33 AM

Whenever this topic comes up, and it often does, I remember what my old firearms instructor told us when I went on "the job" many years ago.
he said, "You can easily double the stopping power of the .38 Spl. issue load. Pull the damned trigger again"
Only caliber I ever carried in uniform. S & W Mod 10. When I got out of uniform, S & W Mod 37. Today, S & W 642. (Gave my son my 37. Dumbest thing I ever did.)
Good hits count. Misses get you dead. There is NOTHING wrong with the old .38 Spl. as a defense round, as long as you can hit with it.
Nuff said.

Black Adder LXX · January 28, 2014, 06:33 PM

I feel confident with my 642 as my CCW. I wouldn't want to get hit with one!

That said, if I'm home, the GP-100 is coming out with 357 HP ammo in it.

jben · January 28, 2014, 07:18 PM

I have two j frame .357's, one with a 2" and one a 3" barrel. I doubt I will ever shoot a .357 in either one of them. I look at them as very durable 38's. I know there are those who do shoot .357's in them, but I have a GP100 for that. I think the 38 Special has some very viable loads on the factory market. I have found several that I like a lot, and that's what I carry and shoot in them. jben

Nick_C_S · January 28, 2014, 07:24 PM

Quote:

I look at them (2" & 3" J-frame 357's) as very durable 38's.

^^ Exactly. ^^ +1

Mannlicher · January 29, 2014, 08:36 AM

I have been carrying a .38 Special revolver as a CCW piece for many years. This little Model 60 is a favorite. I make two different loads for this one, a 158 gr LSWC over SR4756 powder, and a Sierra 140 gr JHP over Blue Dot.

MisterMills357 · January 29, 2014, 02:59 PM

Yeah, I'm OK with the .38 Special; but I must confess my heavy preference for the .357 Magnum. OK, there, I have confessed it, now to the topic.
I fell in love with the .38, when I held a snub-nose in a gun store. I liked the gun, it was as handy as all get out.
I loaded it with NyClad because of, its big fat Hollow Point.

I figured that if I ever really got in too deep; that I was going to press the gun into my attacker. Yes, I know, that sounds gruesome. But it would work, and I would keep all of my original human parts, in working order.

Deaf Smith · January 29, 2014, 10:13 PM

Quote:

38 special for self defense

David,

If you can shoot, and shoot very well, even a .22 will do for SD.

If you can't hit the broad side of a barn, then even a 20 shot 9mm won't help.

Funny thing is just yesterday I handled a Colt 'Army Special' .38. 5 inch barrel, nickel plated (original nickel at that) and it locked tight.

I'm sure with standard pressure 158gr LSWHPs it will do a fine job if you can shoot strait.

Oh, and I use a S&W 640-1 .357 snub with Buffalo Bore DPX .357 'low recoil' ammo in it for summer use. Power is about like a +p .38 (but from a 2 1/4 inch snub.)

I am quite comfortable with it. But then I practice weekly. And my practice isn't target shooting.

Deaf

January 19, 2014, 07:36 PM	#56
deputy tom Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 753	.38 Spl. 158 gr LSWC in duty gun and off duty guns for close to forty years. I'm still here. tom. __________________ N.R.A.LIFE MEMBER Thank Goodness we're back on line. An end will come on the world, but love and music will endure. Thig crioch air an t-saoghail, ach mairidh gaol 's ceol. Old Scottish Gaelic proverb

January 21, 2014, 11:38 PM	#57
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Yes indeed! The .38S&W Special is an ideal round for protection Heavy or light fast moving H/P's M/E is adequate to incapacitate, with center mass hits Penetration is good through heavy clothing and the cartrige is still small enough that you can carry 100 rounds without a lot of troubles A wide variety of loads provide serious "social" loadings all the way to light paper punching loads When handloaded good hunting ammo can be assembled as well as inexpensive pratice ammo too! For more than 100 years it's been a preferred choice for self defense! WHy? because it works! ZVP

January 22, 2014, 08:32 PM	#62
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	But, but,..... regular .38s bounce off winter clothes! __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

January 24, 2014, 10:34 PM	#63
billj47 Member Join Date: March 11, 2009 Posts: 32	642 daily carry http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...7/DSCF0463.jpg http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...7/P1290011.jpg

January 26, 2014, 08:22 AM	#67
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	Not only is the .38 Special adequate for SD, it is, or was for a very long time, the standard, by which the other SD handgun cartridges were judged. __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

January 19, 2014, 03:24 PM	#51
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	I wonder how much of this is actually gun driven as well? I seem to remember that Ayoob had some numbers a while back on revolver hit ratios with supposedly "trained" cops, and they were pretty dismal, something like 25%, which isnt good, especially when you only have 5 or 6 rounds on board. Those ratios jumped up when the cops started switching to autos. I realize the number of rounds fired also jumped up, but actual hits also seemed to be better. Perhaps this more about perception, and has more to with the results of "misses" than it does with hits. I dont think theres really a lot of difference between modern loads of the various realistic calibers, but shootabilty does make a big difference, especially if youre not willing to put in the effort to get good with what you carry. Unfortunately, many, if not most of the favored "carry" .38s, come in packages that require a good bit of constant work to be proficient with them, and are equally unfortunate to be brutal to shoot enough to achieve that.

January 19, 2014, 03:55 PM	#52
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	I don't think people are constructed any different today then they were at the conception of the 38SP back in the late 1800's. And it's done an adequate job for all these years. Guess it will work till the super-humans come along.

January 19, 2014, 04:01 PM	#53
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,968	the .38spl LHP+p by Remington has a proven street record. not bal-gel, not lab reports, not back yard tests, not hear say, not third hand stories but real life street records, even from snubbies. shot placement trumps all, and with good shot placement a properly designed and applied .38spl round will do the job. at times I have to wonder if an OP is asking because they really are lacking the knowledge or trying to get under the skin of those with fragile egos.... is it the best or the worst? no. yet some will always chime in with how a .50cal desert eagle is better or how a Tommy gun carries more rounds..... neither answer the question asked.

January 19, 2014, 06:42 PM	#55
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	The notion that the 38 Special is inadequate for self defense seems to have started in the 1960s with the spread of drug use, and the RNL bullet is a poor choice, but like the 22lr, beats feet, fists and foul language.

January 22, 2014, 06:51 AM	#58
Kilibreaux Member Join Date: October 4, 2012 Posts: 57	I believe that you should chamber what the gun was made to shoot. If you choose to carry a .357 Magnum then the loads in the gun should be .357 Magnum. Much "hay" is made of shelling out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a "magnum" chambering only to load it with WEAK "standard" loads. For example, why buy a .357 Magnum if you're only going to stick +P .38spl ammo in it? Why spend the cash on a .44 Mag if you're going to stick .44 spl ammo in it? If I'm carrying a .44 MAGNUM you can be sure it's loaded with MAGNUM ammo! Same with the .357 Magnum. Despite what so many "experts" will proclaim, the average handgun is marginal for putting a human down. A .44 special delivering 400 lb-ft is nowhere near a .44 Magnum delivering 1,000 lb-ft. As for the nonsense about "flash and blast" bear in mind that the FLASH of a magnum round being loosed is GREATER and therefore more disorienting on the MUZZLE side of the gun! If you the shooter can be disoriented by flash and blast, IMAGINE how the person on the receiving side is going to feel? The bottom line is: If you buy a .357 Magnum then LOAD IT WITH .357 Magnum ammo! If you buy a .44 Magnum then load it with full magnum ammo!

January 22, 2014, 07:01 AM	#59
Kilibreaux Member Join Date: October 4, 2012 Posts: 57	The .38 spl from a 1.8" barrel is pretty close to the .380 ACP...and in many loadings superior. Yes a .357 Magnum beats the .38 spl everyday including Sunday, but it does so with a recoil penalty that many cannot accept. Any way you slice it, cartridges delivering less than 350 lb-ft of KE are marginal at best, but the trade-off between concealment and power is why we choose to carry a less powerful gun.

January 22, 2014, 06:14 PM	#61
Average Joe Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 2005 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,325	Yes, I carry a .38 special and have for over 40 years.

January 24, 2014, 10:50 PM	#65
tomrkba Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2011 Posts: 751	I prefer 357 Magnum for defense over 38 Special. I see no point in using a cartridge that sends a 125 grain bullet at a lower velocity than 124 grain bullet from 9x19mm. For me, "revolver" means "Magnum". If it did not, I would use only semi-automatic pistols.

January 26, 2014, 08:15 AM	#66
skoro Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 1,952	tom - I doubt anyone would argue that the 38spl is superior to the 357. To do so would be foolish. In my case, I load my 357 HD revolvers with Buffalo Bore's 38+P FBI rounds because the few times I've fired 357s in an enclosed area, my hearing suffered for quite awhile, even though I was wearing ear plugs. The 38+P is a few steps down the loudness ladder and has less muzzle blast to boot. So it's what I like for my personal situation. Each of us has to evaluate our own circumstances and prepare accordingly. The 357 is probably one of the best SD cartridges available. But I feel the 38+P would serve well if needed to stop a home invader.

January 26, 2014, 11:21 AM	#68
Zathras Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2010 Posts: 208	38 Special for me, is all I need. I remember My uncle carried one for years when I was a kid. When I left the peoples republic of NYC in 2004, the first gun I bought was a S&W model 36 J Frame made in 1981,and that's my regular constant carry. I also have a model 10, and I recently acquired a SS Model 60 38 for $200.00 . I have other calibers, but I always stick with the good old 38 special.

January 28, 2014, 09:33 AM	#69
Yankee Doodle Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Posts: 619	Whenever this topic comes up, and it often does, I remember what my old firearms instructor told us when I went on "the job" many years ago. he said, "You can easily double the stopping power of the .38 Spl. issue load. Pull the damned trigger again" Only caliber I ever carried in uniform. S & W Mod 10. When I got out of uniform, S & W Mod 37. Today, S & W 642. (Gave my son my 37. Dumbest thing I ever did.) Good hits count. Misses get you dead. There is NOTHING wrong with the old .38 Spl. as a defense round, as long as you can hit with it. Nuff said.

January 28, 2014, 06:33 PM	#70
Black Adder LXX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2007 Location: The DEEP South Posts: 293	I feel confident with my 642 as my CCW. I wouldn't want to get hit with one! That said, if I'm home, the GP-100 is coming out with 357 HP ammo in it. __________________ "In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress." - John Adams

January 28, 2014, 07:18 PM	#71
jben Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2006 Posts: 216	I have two j frame .357's, one with a 2" and one a 3" barrel. I doubt I will ever shoot a .357 in either one of them. I look at them as very durable 38's. I know there are those who do shoot .357's in them, but I have a GP100 for that. I think the 38 Special has some very viable loads on the factory market. I have found several that I like a lot, and that's what I carry and shoot in them. jben

January 29, 2014, 08:36 AM	#73
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	I have been carrying a .38 Special revolver as a CCW piece for many years. This little Model 60 is a favorite. I make two different loads for this one, a 158 gr LSWC over SR4756 powder, and a Sierra 140 gr JHP over Blue Dot. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

January 29, 2014, 02:59 PM	#74
MisterMills357 Junior Member Join Date: January 27, 2014 Posts: 5	.38 Special Out Of A .357 For Defense Yeah, I'm OK with the .38 Special; but I must confess my heavy preference for the .357 Magnum. OK, there, I have confessed it, now to the topic. I fell in love with the .38, when I held a snub-nose in a gun store. I liked the gun, it was as handy as all get out. I loaded it with NyClad because of, its big fat Hollow Point. I figured that if I ever really got in too deep; that I was going to press the gun into my attacker. Yes, I know, that sounds gruesome. But it would work, and I would keep all of my original human parts, in working order.