Black Hawk Down

Full Metal Jacket · April 12, 2005, 08:53 PM

I couldn't decide where to post this, so i decided this would be the closest. Anyways...

Does anyone know exactly what made pres. clinton pull U.S. Marines, Army Rangers and Delta force out of Somalia?
Was it because of the "black hawk down" events in Mogadishu? I heard the final straw was the somalis dragging a u.s. marine body through the streets.
Anyone know for sure?
Also, what weapons did Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart (R.I.P.) use when they went back to rescue pilot Mike Durant? In the movie black hawk down they look like they had M14's, M4's, M9 Beretta, and a M1911.
thanks

R.I.P. Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart for sacrificing their lives to save one.
R.I.P. to all marines, delta force, and rangers who died fighting in somalia.

PaulBk · April 12, 2005, 10:24 PM

Get the book "Blackhawk Down" by Mark Bowden and the companion "The Battle of Mogadishu" by Eversmann and Schilling. Both are great reads and will provide detail to the movie.

-PB

hawken50 · April 12, 2005, 10:24 PM

you could find all the awnsers you want it mark bowden's book of the same name. it's a great read. i'm not positive which one but i think it was shughart was specifically mentioned as using an m14 with i believe ap rounds. he was unhappy with the performance because they would just zip right through the somilies(sp) and have little immedate effect.

PaulBk · April 12, 2005, 10:28 PM

Get the book "Blackhawk Down" by Mark Bowden and the companion "The Battle of Mogadishu" by Eversmann and Schilling. Both are great reads and will provide detail to the movie.

-PB

ISP2605 · April 13, 2005, 07:14 AM

If you ever get the chance to hear Michael Durant speak, don't miss it. He does an outstanding presentation. Last time I heard him there was about 500-600 people in the audiance. For almost 3 hours you could have heard a pin drop. There wasn't even a whisper in the room. Without a doubt one of the most engaging speakers I've ever heard. He tells you a lot that wasn't in either the book or the movie. He has a book "In the Company of Heros" that's great.

haskell · April 13, 2005, 08:01 AM

Echo the sentiments. God bless the women and men who protect us. Where would we be without the military? On are own doesn't sound good.

Rob TT · April 13, 2005, 08:19 AM

PBS Frontline has an episode you can watch online. Check it out along with many other great episodes. Everyone should check them out.

PBS Frontline

Duxman · April 13, 2005, 08:53 AM

Read BHD and it is a great read. Probably one of the top 10 best realistic action type books I have ever read.

Because of the Mog disaster, General Garrison retired, and the Rangers and Delta's were pulled from Somalia, when it was PC to do so. Typical Clinton move.

Shugard used a vietnam era M14 modified, and was universally acknowledged as the smartest man in the unit. His 7.62mm rifle took down BGs with one shot COM while the AR15's armed with the tungsten AR round passed right through the BGs with little trauma damage.

Gordon was armed with an M4 with Tricon optical sites.

Most delta's carried the .45 1911A1 as a sidearm. In fact they practiced with it so much you could tell who was delta by the calluses on the web between forefinger and thumbs.

Hard Ball · April 13, 2005, 03:51 PM

Get a copy of the movie "Blackhawk Down" and study the combat scenes particularly showing close tanfe use of rifles and pistols. You can learn a lot of very useful techniques from them.

Blind Tree Frog · April 13, 2005, 04:27 PM

This might answer some of your q's

http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/.../default16.asp

Blind Tree Frog · April 13, 2005, 04:34 PM

from: http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/.../default23.asp

Quote:

He picked up his weapon, an MP-5K, a little German automatic rifle that fired 9mm rounds.

.....

The crew chiefs carried M-16s. Durant told him where they were kept, and Shughart stepped into the craft, rummaged around and returned with both rifles. He handed Durant Gordon's weapon, a CAR-15 automatic rifle loaded and ready to fire. He didn't say what had happened to Gordon.

Full Metal Jacket · April 13, 2005, 04:41 PM

Only in America (well, technically in Somalia) would two men with families give their lives to save one. They deserve the medal of honor more than anyone else in history with a few exceptions, like Audie Murphy.

stephen426 · April 13, 2005, 04:54 PM

I think a good flame thrower would have helped them out of their mess. It was a hell of a mess for sure. When you are dealing with people who aren't afraid to die, its never a pretty situation. As for the armor piercing rounds, I thought they might be beneficial as they could penetrate and kill the people behind the primary target. When you have a mob like that, you need all the firepower you can get. Call in an air strike!

The US has become the world's police but not many countries appreciate all that we do. Although I am appreciative of our military, many operations are in the name of expanding influence or increasing wealth. Lets not confuse that with defending our country.

Dwight55 · April 14, 2005, 12:54 AM

The answer to your question: "Does anyone know exactly what made pres. clinton pull U.S. Marines, Army Rangers and Delta force out of Somalia?" is indeed just an opinion, . . . my opinion, . . .

The cheesy, dirtbag, low life, son of un married parents, military hating, jerk, finally did what he wanted to do: he embarassed our military beyond belief by sending them on an impossible mission, against impossible odds, at an impossible time, in an impossible situation.

By the way, he learned it from his peanut picking predecessor.

A friend of mine told me that when El Dirtbag went to Germany and wound up on one of the bases there for a "photo shoot" troop inspection: his secret service people put out the word and enforced the action that none of our troops he would review could have a functional weapon. Armorers were not allowed to issue bolts or ammo while he was on base, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight

LAK · April 14, 2005, 04:21 AM

Shughart and Gordon were truly courageous from the point they volunteered to go in. From the account it was obvious the odds were that they wouldn't make it.

accordingtome · April 14, 2005, 04:45 AM

I don't know about you guys but that s**t brings tears to my eyes seeing those guys in the movie.. To know that actually happened. makes you think

Unique 5.7 · April 14, 2005, 08:03 AM

To answer your question, "Yes." President Clinton. Why not write him a letter and ask him? You never know.
That movie had me hopping around in my seat, I was never more stressed at a movie since seeing "The Deer Hunter."

Blind Tree Frog · April 14, 2005, 11:26 PM

Quote:

A friend of mine told me that when El Dirtbag went to Germany and wound up on one of the bases there for a "photo shoot" troop inspection: his secret service people put out the word and enforced the action that none of our troops he would review could have a functional weapon. Armorers were not allowed to issue bolts or ammo while he was on base, . . .

I wouldn't be surprised if they did that with any president. Their job is to keep him from harm, regardless of what they thought the attitude might of been, unless pres planned on going shooting with them, that makes perfect sense to me.

STLRN · April 15, 2005, 06:55 AM

Ironically the guy who made the statements about the 5.56 effectiveness, or lack there of, Paul Howe is now retired and teaches tactical carbine courses. He has stated that the book went a bit over board in the reciting of what he said.

CastleBravo · April 15, 2005, 04:36 PM

The book Black Hawk Down isn't perfect, but it is very clear that the journalist writing it (Bowden) was actually making a sincere effort to depict events in a fair and accurate way. It is sad that being able to say such a thing is surprising, but such is life.

My take on the whole situation is this:

We pulled out because Clinton chickened out. That's the bottom line. Task Force Ranger suffered serious casualties, and Clinton didn't have the balls to cope with the natural consequences of warfare. The sick irony is that it was Clinton who had the mission in Somalia changed from guarding food shipments (Bush I), to trying to re-make Somali society at gunpoint. There would have been no Battle of Mogadishu but for Clinton's change in the mission.

You can look at the Somalia mess as a failure to reconcile ends, means and resources. The desired end-state was a stable Somali state. The means chosen was to take out Aideed. But this means would not accomplish the desired end state even if it was successfully carried out; you could argue that it would really have no impact of consequence at all to get rid of Aideed. After all, Aideed went away later without us, and Somalia is still the same chaotic hell hole. And on top of that, the resources allocated Task Force Ranger weren't really adequate to implement the means chosen anyway, hence their needlessly high casualties.

It is fashionable to bash Clinton on the political right. This is a case where I believe it is totally deserved. He was a strategic imbecille AND a coward.

Phil306 · April 15, 2005, 09:07 PM

As someone else posted, I suggest you take a good training course from Paul Howe:

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com

Paul, was there, and is quite extensively quoted in the book. After hours, he can give you a great debrief on the incident and you will learn the "truth." Not some trumped up book selling deal of it.

RoyG · April 15, 2005, 09:54 PM

Non multa sed multum

Black Hawk Down
Anonymous

"Black Hawk Down!" across the net came the cry
A wisp from the ground brought fire to sky
Two hundred heads turned in that moment so clear
Yet not a first thought their own lives' fear.

Pilot, soldier, sailor, crew
Hell's fire below meant nothing to you
Yet into the maelstrom only two could leap
Against oppression fury they would reap

I can still see them coughing against the desert sand
Fearing naught, an upraised hand
Gesturing towards the fallen, neither haughty nor proud
They disappeared quickly into the rising cloud

Nothing further could I offer, they doubtless knew
As towards the injured with wings they flew
Through smoke, through fire, and failing light
Two soldiers together entered a selfless night

They gave without asking
A reward never known
They sacrificed freely
And our brother came home.

Thank you.

Blind Tree Frog · April 15, 2005, 11:51 PM

Quote:

As someone else posted, I suggest you take a good training course from Paul Howe:

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com

Paul, was there, and is quite extensively quoted in the book. After hours, he can give you a great debrief on the incident and you will learn the "truth." Not some trumped up book selling deal of it.

Eh, the movie came more or less straight from the radio transmissions and it matches up well enough with the news article I posted above (which later became the book as I recall), so I'd wager the book was fairly accurate. What differences are you referring to?

someday I need to hunt down the email of the differences between the movie and what actually happened that I used to have.

Phil306 · April 16, 2005, 02:41 PM

Wasn't arguing the book. The book is fairly accurate, with a few minor exceptions. However, the movie, again according to Paul Howe, is not nearly close to the truth. Again, this isn't coming from me, a news article, or anything else. It is coming from a man who was there.

Blind Tree Frog · April 16, 2005, 09:38 PM

And the review I had read was from someone flying the supply helicopters commenting on the changes in dialog. His review was that aside from cutting back the number of people, the dialog was fairly accurate as to what was really said.

But like I said, wish I could find that email that summed it up.

April 12, 2005, 08:53 PM	#1
Full Metal Jacket Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2004 Posts: 260	Black Hawk Down I couldn't decide where to post this, so i decided this would be the closest. Anyways... Does anyone know exactly what made pres. clinton pull U.S. Marines, Army Rangers and Delta force out of Somalia? Was it because of the "black hawk down" events in Mogadishu? I heard the final straw was the somalis dragging a u.s. marine body through the streets. Anyone know for sure? Also, what weapons did Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart (R.I.P.) use when they went back to rescue pilot Mike Durant? In the movie black hawk down they look like they had M14's, M4's, M9 Beretta, and a M1911. thanks R.I.P. Gary Gordon and Randy Shughart for sacrificing their lives to save one. R.I.P. to all marines, delta force, and rangers who died fighting in somalia.

April 12, 2005, 10:24 PM	#3
hawken50 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: western new york Posts: 244	you could find all the awnsers you want it mark bowden's book of the same name. it's a great read. i'm not positive which one but i think it was shughart was specifically mentioned as using an m14 with i believe ap rounds. he was unhappy with the performance because they would just zip right through the somilies(sp) and have little immedate effect. __________________ "A thunderclap, a tongue of flame, the still abruptly shattered..." Michael Marks

April 13, 2005, 08:01 AM	#6
haskell Member Join Date: October 14, 2004 Location: Ma Posts: 64	Echo the sentiments. God bless the women and men who protect us. Where would we be without the military? On are own doesn't sound good. __________________ 10048 Never Forget

April 13, 2005, 03:51 PM	#9
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	Get a copy of the movie "Blackhawk Down" and study the combat scenes particularly showing close tanfe use of rifles and pistols. You can learn a lot of very useful techniques from them. __________________ "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."

April 13, 2005, 04:54 PM	#13
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I think a good flame thrower would have helped them out of their mess. It was a hell of a mess for sure. When you are dealing with people who aren't afraid to die, its never a pretty situation. As for the armor piercing rounds, I thought they might be beneficial as they could penetrate and kill the people behind the primary target. When you have a mob like that, you need all the firepower you can get. Call in an air strike! The US has become the world's police but not many countries appreciate all that we do. Although I am appreciative of our military, many operations are in the name of expanding influence or increasing wealth. Lets not confuse that with defending our country. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

April 12, 2005, 10:24 PM	#2
PaulBk Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2004 Location: Western Washington Posts: 164	Get the book "Blackhawk Down" by Mark Bowden and the companion "The Battle of Mogadishu" by Eversmann and Schilling. Both are great reads and will provide detail to the movie. -PB

April 12, 2005, 10:28 PM	#4
PaulBk Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2004 Location: Western Washington Posts: 164	Get the book "Blackhawk Down" by Mark Bowden and the companion "The Battle of Mogadishu" by Eversmann and Schilling. Both are great reads and will provide detail to the movie. -PB

April 13, 2005, 07:14 AM	#5
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	If you ever get the chance to hear Michael Durant speak, don't miss it. He does an outstanding presentation. Last time I heard him there was about 500-600 people in the audiance. For almost 3 hours you could have heard a pin drop. There wasn't even a whisper in the room. Without a doubt one of the most engaging speakers I've ever heard. He tells you a lot that wasn't in either the book or the movie. He has a book "In the Company of Heros" that's great.

April 13, 2005, 08:19 AM	#7
Rob TT Member Join Date: November 3, 2004 Posts: 33	PBS Frontline has an episode you can watch online. Check it out along with many other great episodes. Everyone should check them out. PBS Frontline

April 13, 2005, 08:53 AM	#8
Duxman Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2005 Location: VA Posts: 1,294	Read BHD and it is a great read. Probably one of the top 10 best realistic action type books I have ever read. Because of the Mog disaster, General Garrison retired, and the Rangers and Delta's were pulled from Somalia, when it was PC to do so. Typical Clinton move. Shugard used a vietnam era M14 modified, and was universally acknowledged as the smartest man in the unit. His 7.62mm rifle took down BGs with one shot COM while the AR15's armed with the tungsten AR round passed right through the BGs with little trauma damage. Gordon was armed with an M4 with Tricon optical sites. Most delta's carried the .45 1911A1 as a sidearm. In fact they practiced with it so much you could tell who was delta by the calluses on the web between forefinger and thumbs.

April 13, 2005, 04:27 PM	#10
Blind Tree Frog Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2005 Posts: 298	This might answer some of your q's http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/.../default16.asp

April 13, 2005, 04:41 PM	#12
Full Metal Jacket Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2004 Posts: 260	Only in America (well, technically in Somalia) would two men with families give their lives to save one. They deserve the medal of honor more than anyone else in history with a few exceptions, like Audie Murphy.

April 14, 2005, 12:54 AM	#14
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	The answer to your question: "Does anyone know exactly what made pres. clinton pull U.S. Marines, Army Rangers and Delta force out of Somalia?" is indeed just an opinion, . . . my opinion, . . . The cheesy, dirtbag, low life, son of un married parents, military hating, jerk, finally did what he wanted to do: he embarassed our military beyond belief by sending them on an impossible mission, against impossible odds, at an impossible time, in an impossible situation. By the way, he learned it from his peanut picking predecessor. A friend of mine told me that when El Dirtbag went to Germany and wound up on one of the bases there for a "photo shoot" troop inspection: his secret service people put out the word and enforced the action that none of our troops he would review could have a functional weapon. Armorers were not allowed to issue bolts or ammo while he was on base, . . . May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

April 14, 2005, 04:21 AM	#15
LAK Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251	Shughart and Gordon were truly courageous from the point they volunteered to go in. From the account it was obvious the odds were that they wouldn't make it.

April 14, 2005, 04:45 AM	#16
accordingtome Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2005 Location: TeXas, HoUSton Posts: 262	I don't know about you guys but that s**t brings tears to my eyes seeing those guys in the movie.. To know that actually happened. makes you think

April 14, 2005, 08:03 AM	#17
Unique 5.7 Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2005 Location: The Heartland Posts: 214	To answer your question, "Yes." President Clinton. Why not write him a letter and ask him? You never know. That movie had me hopping around in my seat, I was never more stressed at a movie since seeing "The Deer Hunter." __________________ "Never underestimate the power of a guilty conscience." - Det. Alexandra Eames, "Law & Order: Criminal Intent"

April 15, 2005, 06:55 AM	#19
STLRN Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 1999 Location: USA Posts: 1,163	Ironically the guy who made the statements about the 5.56 effectiveness, or lack there of, Paul Howe is now retired and teaches tactical carbine courses. He has stated that the book went a bit over board in the reciting of what he said. __________________ God truly fights on the side with the best artillery

April 15, 2005, 04:36 PM	#20
CastleBravo Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Posts: 2,144	The book Black Hawk Down isn't perfect, but it is very clear that the journalist writing it (Bowden) was actually making a sincere effort to depict events in a fair and accurate way. It is sad that being able to say such a thing is surprising, but such is life. My take on the whole situation is this: We pulled out because Clinton chickened out. That's the bottom line. Task Force Ranger suffered serious casualties, and Clinton didn't have the balls to cope with the natural consequences of warfare. The sick irony is that it was Clinton who had the mission in Somalia changed from guarding food shipments (Bush I), to trying to re-make Somali society at gunpoint. There would have been no Battle of Mogadishu but for Clinton's change in the mission. You can look at the Somalia mess as a failure to reconcile ends, means and resources. The desired end-state was a stable Somali state. The means chosen was to take out Aideed. But this means would not accomplish the desired end state even if it was successfully carried out; you could argue that it would really have no impact of consequence at all to get rid of Aideed. After all, Aideed went away later without us, and Somalia is still the same chaotic hell hole. And on top of that, the resources allocated Task Force Ranger weren't really adequate to implement the means chosen anyway, hence their needlessly high casualties. It is fashionable to bash Clinton on the political right. This is a case where I believe it is totally deserved. He was a strategic imbecille AND a coward.

April 15, 2005, 09:07 PM	#21
Phil306 Member Join Date: May 24, 2004 Location: Dublin, California Posts: 76	As someone else posted, I suggest you take a good training course from Paul Howe: http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com Paul, was there, and is quite extensively quoted in the book. After hours, he can give you a great debrief on the incident and you will learn the "truth." Not some trumped up book selling deal of it. __________________ "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Sir Winston Churchill

April 15, 2005, 09:54 PM	#22
RoyG Member Join Date: January 4, 2005 Posts: 66	Non multa sed multum Black Hawk Down Anonymous "Black Hawk Down!" across the net came the cry A wisp from the ground brought fire to sky Two hundred heads turned in that moment so clear Yet not a first thought their own lives' fear. Pilot, soldier, sailor, crew Hell's fire below meant nothing to you Yet into the maelstrom only two could leap Against oppression fury they would reap I can still see them coughing against the desert sand Fearing naught, an upraised hand Gesturing towards the fallen, neither haughty nor proud They disappeared quickly into the rising cloud Nothing further could I offer, they doubtless knew As towards the injured with wings they flew Through smoke, through fire, and failing light Two soldiers together entered a selfless night They gave without asking A reward never known They sacrificed freely And our brother came home. Thank you. __________________ NSDQ

April 16, 2005, 02:41 PM	#24
Phil306 Member Join Date: May 24, 2004 Location: Dublin, California Posts: 76	Wasn't arguing the book. The book is fairly accurate, with a few minor exceptions. However, the movie, again according to Paul Howe, is not nearly close to the truth. Again, this isn't coming from me, a news article, or anything else. It is coming from a man who was there. __________________ "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Sir Winston Churchill

April 16, 2005, 09:38 PM	#25
Blind Tree Frog Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2005 Posts: 298	And the review I had read was from someone flying the supply helicopters commenting on the changes in dialog. His review was that aside from cutting back the number of people, the dialog was fairly accurate as to what was really said. But like I said, wish I could find that email that summed it up.