New camo question?

[Nicotine]

Is the ACU better than the marine equivalent? I'm sorry but I can't remember what they call the new stuff the marines use, but I know its darker and has more black in it. I was thinking the ACU might be better since it has no black and black shows up a glowing white in NVDs. Any thoughts?

[JoshB]

I never saw any "glowing black" in my NVD's! I've seen the new Army cammies, but was not impressed. They looked like bleached Marine cammies. I use black cammie paint (with green & brown) when I cammie up in the field. Some say there's no black in the treeline. I beg to differ. Ever hear of shadows? You'll probably hear something different from someone who actually wears the new Army cammies.

[Nicotine]

Maybe its just gen1 NVD's that show black fabric as bright white. I have seen it happen with a cheap gen1, and have "heard" of it happening with gen3, but have not actually seen it with anything other than gen1. what type of NVD did you use? I think the reason is that black doesn't relfect light the same way other colours do, so the light shows up more on an infrared spectrum. I am not a lightreflectionologist though, so maybe someone has some insight into this who can explain the situation better.

[Chaingunner]

I've stood many watches on the fantail of my ship with NVG at night. Underway, at night, water is pitch black, and it certainly does NOT show up as white when viewed through NVG, nor does the night sky.

As for the cammies:

The army ones look better in my opinion. Someone mentioned that shadows are black, but if you're creeping around in the shade anyway, then you don't need the black to be there. Furthermore, what if there AREN'T any shadows? Then all that black doesn't help you too much...!

At any rate, both the USA and USMC digital cammies look better than the blue digital cammies the navy is about to adopt :barf: :barf: :barf: I definitely do NOT want to wear those ugly things.

[Nicotine]

water is pitch black, and it certainly does NOT show up as white when viewed through NVG, nor does the night sky.

I think it only applies to fabric, because of surface properies.
It wouldn't reflect on water or sky, because they are black due to lack of light where fabric is black due to light reflecting on a different wavelength. I have seen this for myself otherwise I would assume that since noone seems to know what I'm talking about to be a sign of it not existing.

I will look up these navy camo so i can see what they look like, but i am having a ahrd time figuring out why the navy would need camo anyways. All I can think of would be for the seals, but it seems like they would be better off with the same ACU pattern the army is using, since they are sent into such a variety of locations.

[newworldCurmudgeon]

PVS 7As with utilizing the IR. I used to spot M-16 slings at night in the field. The sling looked bright white with the IR, and then I'd go around collecting up "unsecured" weapons. 1SG would credit us with a beer per weapon, and a 4 day pass if you could "secure" his weapon. I think 550 cord showed up white also, but that was about 10 years ago so I am not sure.

No one everr got mine though, "Buffy" slept with me in my bag every night


NWC

*This Sig Line for Rent*

Oh yeah the original question was about the ACUs I haven't used them in the field yet, so I am not sure about the effectivness of the pattern, but they are very comfortable once you get used to them

[Chaingunner]

The Navy is going to digital cammies for reasons I am still unable to figure out. The best excuse for this massive waste of time and money I've heard is that digital grey/blue cammies will hide deck and haze gray paint stains well.

Because, you know, if I have the option of painting in my cammies or painting in my coveralls, I'm going to pick my cammies please.

I really think that if they want sailors to wear cammies, they should have said to us: everyone is now authorized to wear the green woodland pattern cammies currently worn by MAs and base security types (the kind the army and marine corps used to wear before going digital).

There's an arguement that blue cammies will be a liability if you fall overboard. This is a moot point: coveralls and utilities/dungarees are blue anyway, and those are the uniforms currently worn underway...

I can't find a picture of the uniform on the internet, but picture in your mind's eye a marine's digital camo..now make the dominant color a dark blue, supported by flecks of light blue and grey, and you've got about the right idea. ::shudder::

[sgtgrunt]

i wear the new ACU every day and theres good and bad about them, but that comes with anything new. they work great in the sandbox but are totaly useless back home. the army needs to do what the USMC does, have one uniform for over seas and one for domestic use. the fabric is comfortable but it has bad seam stitching, sleave packets are good, pen packets good. velcrow packets very bad,over all the atmy has the right idea it just needs to be fine tuned.

[JoshB]

what type of NVD did you use?

I used the NSPVS[?]7's.They're replacing them w/ the 14's, but I havn't used them yet.

[5whiskey]

I never figured out what the army was trying to do. Make one camo pattern for desert and woodland? What they managed to do is effectively make a pattern that sticks out almost anywhere. Marine Digital cammies work well, but lack the old ripstop in the old cammies. They're also heavier and hotter than the old tri-colors. All in all, they work well and serve their purpose, and being lazy I like the perm press thing. I still would put up with ironing my cammies the few short months I spend in america at a time nowadays to get the old ripstop back. I couldn't tear a hole in those things, whereas now a set of trousers are living on borrowed time if I keep them for 2 months in country without tearing the knees or elbows. The Marine Corps has the camoflauge pattern figured out, though. I like the Army's concept, but I don't think it can be pulled off.

[Nicotine]

I'v heard that camo doesn't hide from color-blind people very well, Since I'm colour-blind I can testify to this, the old woodland camo and desert camo sticks out in its surroundings. The new marine camo and ACU does not. I wonder if the whole reason for the change was to prevent colour-blind people from seeing it as well. I have only seen the marine in pictures, but I own a set of ACU's and have difficulty seeing them in tall grass or feild. they do stick out in heavy wooded areas though. I haven't tried them in sand yet.

[UniversalFrost]

at least the Army and marines new uniforms resemble uniforms. I just got out of the air force and their new uniform concepts (always evolving) look like urban camo "crap" from the malls. One iteration even had little air force "wings" all over them with teh USAF words as well. They even went with teh marine/navy style hat for awhile as well. I used to work on the flight line and that is the only place where these things would be effective at camoflagueing you and at night that is not what you want!!! Many of us who were spec. operators wore the modified blouses in the "normal" pattern. I like how the army adopted this type of blouse but with a different camo pattern. My personaly prefernce on military camo paterns is tiger stripe (color depends on the AOR) and the current (or was when I got out) desert pattern. The marine and army switching to suede/desert boots that don't require polishing is a great idea, but they should still get issued the original combat boots in basic and AIT because they need to learn how to polish

Also, I have seen bdu's show up white at night through NVG's and especially IR aided NVG's when the bdu's were starched. They show up very well and you can easily pick out officers or senior NCO's that way (since they are the only ones hanging around the flag pole who have the time to do it in the field).

[FirstFreedom]

That's very interesting that color-blind folks have a tactical advantage in seeing colored camo - much like non-bird game that don't see camo - Nic, I should use you to check all my deer hunting clothes.

[Nicotine]

That's very interesting that color-blind folks have a tactical advantage in seeing colored camo

Yeah, pretty neat alright. They first discovered this during "the Nam".

One iteration even had little air force "wings" all over them with teh USAF words as well.

I think I had some Pajamas like that when I was 3.

[BlueTrain]

Isn't it funny how every army comes up with a different pattern of camouflage for use in exactly the same terrain? Only maybe they try them out in one place (like Arizona), then use them some place that isn't quite the same (like Iraq). I for one think the new pattern is fine and I'm looking at a photo of my son. I think it is OK in the places where he is and has been. How far away do you have to be before you can no longer tell the difference in the patterns?

The cut and arrangement of pockets is another matter but the cammo pattern makes no difference to that.

The Canadian Army issued a camouflage uniform (jacket or smock only, I think) that was just for garrison or barrack use. It lasted for a little while but no one could figure it out. There are some interesting stories about camouflage uniforms.

[MisterPX]

Overall, I really like the ACU's, although the shoulder pockets really suck, as well as the velcro. I think color issue will work itself out through the continuing generations ( I think they're on 4 or 5 now), although one of my Sgt's with grey tone pants and green tone pockets lookes kinda goofy. As far as the pattern itself, well....that's what you get for one color fits all. As far as NV, with PVS14's, black gloves are VERY easy to spot.

[pickpocket]

The new Marine pattern is called MARPAT (Marine Pattern) and the Army's is ACU (Army Combat Uniform).

The reason that the digital patterns work well is because that's how the eye sees things, pixelated. The problem with the old patterns was TOO much black - no way you were going to pass off the old woodland pattern as "shadows".

The Marines stuck to the idea of having two patterns, one for woodland terrain and one for desert - both work well, the deserts work awesome. In country, I didn't notice any ACU's, mostly the old Somalia desert pattern for the Army guys. Then again, I don't remember when the Army finally made the ACU's official.

The Army decided to break away from the dual-pattern philosophy and went with one that (I agree with Wheeler) is guranteed to stick out in most every situation. I don't particularly care for the ACU's, but besides the color, that's mostly due to my personal loyalties (grin) and the fact that the Marines came up with the digitized pattern first..

The color of the fabric has as much - if not MORE - to do with the color of the reflected light. After all, color is just a certain frequency of wavelength of reflected light, while fabric changes a material's "ability" to reflect light.
In standard PASSIVE NVD's, black will not show up as white. However, using ACTIVE IR, darker colors will sometimes show up brighter than they are because of the way IR light is reflected. That said, I rarely use active IR in Gen3 NVDs. They work FINE with ambient light, and I used to drive with them Besides, the IR light on your NVDs is only good for a few yards. Not much good unless you are in a dark room.

And, about the Urban cammies - those would actually work better for people like SWAT operatiors than always running around in black from head to toe. Think about it.

[JoshB]

Still waiting for digital body armor/accessories to complement the cammies. All my gear is old green camo style (minus the new ILBE ruck sack).

[pickpocket]

Indeed - and what a comic sight it makes. Just makes you shake your head and smile.

[MisterPX]

the fact that the Marines came up with the digitized pattern first

I beleive the Canadians had CADPAT before the Marines. Also, a lot of european countries are running digtals, not sure on their inception dates though.

[Nicotine]

Germany has had the fleck camo forever, it seems like all digital cammo is is fleck camo with squares.

[UniversalFrost]

we used camo netting combined with the local shrubbery and of course a little dirt/sand and the weapons fit in great. The normal spray paint works ok, but if the weapon wasn't completely free of oils or grease the paint woulnt stick and some of the guys used paint that didn't hold up to heat, so when their was a lot of sustained firing the paint eventually stared to peel, fleck, etc... Also some paints didn't like the gloves we were wearing (mechanix, flight gloves, etc.. and actually mad ethe weapons "slippery".

[Nicotine]

So if all weapons had to be the same, solid colour, what colour would you choose for them? I was thinking an OD colour, but maybe a little lighter. any suggestions?

Is the navy camo like a digital Urban camo? I think I may have seen them if they are.

Also, since the primary function of camoflage in urban enviroment is not so much to hide as to break up the shape, them why wouldn't standard desert camo or even faded woodland camo work in this role? How important is camoflage REALLY? I am not a soldier so if I am missing something please enlighten me without to much flameage.

[Chaingunner]

So if all weapons had to be the same, solid colour, what colour would you choose for them? I was thinking an OD colour, but maybe a little lighter. any suggestions?

I think they all ought to be a medium, digital gray color on parts that aren't easily hidden or swapped out (such as the receivers on AR style weapons, or the frames on m9s), and then the parts that CAN be easily replaced ought to be available in appropriate camo colors to match whatever uniform is being worn in theater; for example, in Iraq you'd wear (as a Marine) digital desert camo, so your rifle's stock, grip, and both halves of the forend would be in digi desert camo.

Is the navy camo like a digital Urban camo? I think I may have seen them if they are.

Here's one of the older concepts: http://www.news.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=22334

And one of the newer ones, which is much closer to what they've decided we're going to wear. Note that as a Chief (e7) her nametape and navytape are gold; this is true for personnel e7-o10. e6 and below will wear white or silver name and navytape.
http://www.news.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=22065

[BlueTrain]

It is worth mentioning that there are some contradictory objectives when it comes to uniforms. Aside from the obvious things like fit and function for the person wearing them, which are apparently sometimes overlooked or ignored, one of the functions of a uniform is to identify the wearer as a member of certain military body. This sometimes flies in the face of camouflage, at least on the surface, but the whole issue becomes very complicated rather quickly. At any rate, this is one reason the marines have held onto their distinctive cover.

On the subject of digital patterned camouflage, the army experimented with tanks painted in a digital pattern but nothing came of it, presumably because of the difficulty in painting, compared with the value in doing so.