Blue patches

ragwd · August 4, 2013, 01:50 PM

Greetings, Thanks for taking the time to read my thread. I am unsure if this is the right forum for this question, if not Mod please move to the right forum. Ok now my question, Cleaning my ar, my Hoppes #9 wet patches come out with a blue hue to them. Is this indicating lead fouling? I am running a speer fmj 69 gr projectile, 5.56 rifle has a 1 in 9 twist , with 23.5 grains of hodgdon h335 powder. This is at the upper end of powder, but i get my best accuracy from this. Am I getting lead foling from pushing the upper end , and if so whats the best way to clean lead fouling. Thanks [IMG]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

Dixie Gunsmithing · August 4, 2013, 02:15 PM

That color is generated by copper. It really is a greenish tone.

ragwd · August 4, 2013, 02:35 PM

i thought about the corrosion of copper pipes, so I ran some kleen-bore copper cutter #10 through on a on a brush then some more dry patches , greenish is getting lighter, so I will try a few more times , thanks

PetahW · August 4, 2013, 05:48 PM

.

Keep on truckin', until the patches exit "clean".

Regular Hoppe's #9 won't remove copper fouling, but since Hoppe makes a copper solvent that does, I would presume the copper solvent you're using is basically the same thing.

.

Dfariswheel · August 4, 2013, 05:58 PM

Hoppe's #9 will remove copper fouling just like it has for almost 100 years.
True, it's not an aggressive copper solvent, but it also won't harm the bore if left in too long like some solvents.
It will do a good job of removing copper fouling if you give it time to work.

The "trick" to getting copper out of a bore is to give the solvent enough soak time to work.
Solvents remove copper by a chemical action and that takes time to work.
Too many people run a solvent patch through, then immediately a dry patch.
What you need to do is run a wet patch through then give the solvent at least 30 minutes to work.

READ THE LABEL ON THE BOTTLE FOR SAFE SOAK TIMES.
You can leave Hoppe's #9 in forever without harm. Some aggressive solvents can damage a bore if left in longer then 30 minutes, so read the label.

One pointer is that "pumping" patches up and down a bore serves no purpose.
A patch is intended to carry clean solvent into the bore and dirty solvent out.
Run patches smoothly straight through the bore and out the end.

ragwd · August 4, 2013, 08:35 PM

Thanks everyone, patches finally came out clean after soaking several times and about 100 or so patches. Next gun show I will be buying more solvents , patches and nylon brushes. Again thanks for the help!

ozo · August 4, 2013, 09:19 PM

There are so many camps on this subject.
At least you now know what the color means.
There are oodles and gobs of 'google' info just for this dilemma, cleaning up after....and avoiding it in the future at least in the best sense.
Sometimes it requires an ammonia based solvent to get bad fouling corrected.
The best remedy is to prepare in the most possible way BEFORE you have an accuracy issue. All barrels foul. Copper bullets or lead. All fouling isn't bad. Not all agree, but I believe you must break a barrel in, and there is a simple way to do so. Google it. Many factors apply here in regards to keeping it from happening on a major scale over and over. Some factors are powder, projectile diameter, or simply YOUR barrel. Hammer forged, etc.......all barrels are not created equal. The absolute bottom line in avoidance is....know thy gun ! And if you choose to buy and shoot the cheapest store bought shelf ammo you can find, gun show or otherwise.....you may [won't] even find a solution....other than clean, clean, clean.[your weapon]
Google yourself up some info, you will surely be overwhelmed.

ozo · August 4, 2013, 09:42 PM

P.S. I may sound obstinate in my [lack of] info....
So many of these forums are under attack from people bitching about the misuse
and abuse of copyright laws by posting links and material, so I will refrain, otherwise I would flood you with more good reads than you may have time for.
You can find all you need on your own. If not, feel free to msg me and we will go from there.

ozo · August 4, 2013, 10:00 PM

One more thing.....[sorry]
From your pic....if you use a brass jag to clean copper fouling and use any ammonia based products, you are kinda peeing in the wind. Ammonia and brass are not good together in this world we have been discussing.
Even using bore-safe brass cleaning rods for heavy copper fouling is [not what I would do]....and I surely would not use an aluminum cleaning rod. A stainless steel cleaning rod can be the most harmful to your barrel, if not used properly.
So what am I supposed to use ? [you might say]
Bore guides......or be very careful. Muzzle guides....or be very careful. Bore snakes......but the snakes aren't going to help with heavy fouling. Old brass worn out brushes, wrapped with bronze wool......for scrubbing...may be necessary, yet be careful. Super fouling is always a big chore, so best you never get to that point. Nylon wore out or undersized brushes wrapped with cotton patches and copper solvent......mucho bueno. Know thy gun and know your ammo and you will know how many rounds of what you shoot versus when you need to clean YOUR barrel.

ragwd · August 5, 2013, 10:55 AM

Everyone, thanks much for the well thought out posts. I usually take a bore snake and gun scrubber to the range with me and then clean rifles immediately after getting home from range. My daughter was in town and she loves shooting so we planned a big day at range, in all the excitement of the day I forgot the gunscubber and bore snake, then didnt clean rifle till she left for home, several days later. This is why I found the copper mine in my rifle. I do use bore guides for my rifles. I havent replaced alot of worn cleaning tools which i will do at next gun show. Thanks again guys.

Dfariswheel · August 5, 2013, 07:04 PM

If you used 100 patches to clean the bore, you're using about 85 too many, even if the bore was really bad.

Again, run a patch with solvent through the bore and let soak at least 30 minutes, DEPENDING on what the bottle label says.
Then run another wet patch through. If you see copper stains, just let it soak longer and try again.

Also note that you need to recognize the difference between copper fouling and staining caused by the brass clean rod tip.
The tip may leave a slight stain on the patch, but once you understand what it is, you won't be fooled.
To prevent this some people use plastic cleaning rod tips, but be aware that plastic tips have a bad habit of breaking off in the rod.

The "secret" to bore cleaning is to give the solvent time to soak and let the solvent do the cleaning.

August 4, 2013, 01:50 PM	#1
ragwd Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2006 Posts: 925	Blue patches Greetings, Thanks for taking the time to read my thread. I am unsure if this is the right forum for this question, if not Mod please move to the right forum. Ok now my question, Cleaning my ar, my Hoppes #9 wet patches come out with a blue hue to them. Is this indicating lead fouling? I am running a speer fmj 69 gr projectile, 5.56 rifle has a 1 in 9 twist , with 23.5 grains of hodgdon h335 powder. This is at the upper end of powder, but i get my best accuracy from this. Am I getting lead foling from pushing the upper end , and if so whats the best way to clean lead fouling. Thanks [IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

August 4, 2013, 02:15 PM	#2
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	That color is generated by copper. It really is a greenish tone.

August 4, 2013, 02:35 PM	#3
ragwd Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2006 Posts: 925	i thought about the corrosion of copper pipes, so I ran some kleen-bore copper cutter #10 through on a on a brush then some more dry patches , greenish is getting lighter, so I will try a few more times , thanks

August 4, 2013, 05:48 PM	#4
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. Keep on truckin', until the patches exit "clean". Regular Hoppe's #9 won't remove copper fouling, but since Hoppe makes a copper solvent that does, I would presume the copper solvent you're using is basically the same thing. .

August 4, 2013, 05:58 PM	#5
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	Hoppe's #9 will remove copper fouling just like it has for almost 100 years. True, it's not an aggressive copper solvent, but it also won't harm the bore if left in too long like some solvents. It will do a good job of removing copper fouling if you give it time to work. The "trick" to getting copper out of a bore is to give the solvent enough soak time to work. Solvents remove copper by a chemical action and that takes time to work. Too many people run a solvent patch through, then immediately a dry patch. What you need to do is run a wet patch through then give the solvent at least 30 minutes to work. READ THE LABEL ON THE BOTTLE FOR SAFE SOAK TIMES. You can leave Hoppe's #9 in forever without harm. Some aggressive solvents can damage a bore if left in longer then 30 minutes, so read the label. One pointer is that "pumping" patches up and down a bore serves no purpose. A patch is intended to carry clean solvent into the bore and dirty solvent out. Run patches smoothly straight through the bore and out the end.

August 4, 2013, 08:35 PM	#6
ragwd Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2006 Posts: 925	Thanks everyone, patches finally came out clean after soaking several times and about 100 or so patches. Next gun show I will be buying more solvents , patches and nylon brushes. Again thanks for the help!

August 4, 2013, 09:19 PM	#7
ozo Member Join Date: July 9, 2013 Location: Nashville TN Posts: 48	There are so many camps on this subject. At least you now know what the color means. There are oodles and gobs of 'google' info just for this dilemma, cleaning up after....and avoiding it in the future at least in the best sense. Sometimes it requires an ammonia based solvent to get bad fouling corrected. The best remedy is to prepare in the most possible way BEFORE you have an accuracy issue. All barrels foul. Copper bullets or lead. All fouling isn't bad. Not all agree, but I believe you must break a barrel in, and there is a simple way to do so. Google it. Many factors apply here in regards to keeping it from happening on a major scale over and over. Some factors are powder, projectile diameter, or simply YOUR barrel. Hammer forged, etc.......all barrels are not created equal. The absolute bottom line in avoidance is....know thy gun ! And if you choose to buy and shoot the cheapest store bought shelf ammo you can find, gun show or otherwise.....you may [won't] even find a solution....other than clean, clean, clean.[your weapon] Google yourself up some info, you will surely be overwhelmed.

August 4, 2013, 09:42 PM	#8
ozo Member Join Date: July 9, 2013 Location: Nashville TN Posts: 48	P.S. I may sound obstinate in my [lack of] info.... So many of these forums are under attack from people bitching about the misuse and abuse of copyright laws by posting links and material, so I will refrain, otherwise I would flood you with more good reads than you may have time for. You can find all you need on your own. If not, feel free to msg me and we will go from there.

August 4, 2013, 10:00 PM	#9
ozo Member Join Date: July 9, 2013 Location: Nashville TN Posts: 48	One more thing.....[sorry] From your pic....if you use a brass jag to clean copper fouling and use any ammonia based products, you are kinda peeing in the wind. Ammonia and brass are not good together in this world we have been discussing. Even using bore-safe brass cleaning rods for heavy copper fouling is [not what I would do]....and I surely would not use an aluminum cleaning rod. A stainless steel cleaning rod can be the most harmful to your barrel, if not used properly. So what am I supposed to use ? [you might say] Bore guides......or be very careful. Muzzle guides....or be very careful. Bore snakes......but the snakes aren't going to help with heavy fouling. Old brass worn out brushes, wrapped with bronze wool......for scrubbing...may be necessary, yet be careful. Super fouling is always a big chore, so best you never get to that point. Nylon wore out or undersized brushes wrapped with cotton patches and copper solvent......mucho bueno. Know thy gun and know your ammo and you will know how many rounds of what you shoot versus when you need to clean YOUR barrel.

August 5, 2013, 10:55 AM	#10
ragwd Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2006 Posts: 925	Everyone, thanks much for the well thought out posts. I usually take a bore snake and gun scrubber to the range with me and then clean rifles immediately after getting home from range. My daughter was in town and she loves shooting so we planned a big day at range, in all the excitement of the day I forgot the gunscubber and bore snake, then didnt clean rifle till she left for home, several days later. This is why I found the copper mine in my rifle. I do use bore guides for my rifles. I havent replaced alot of worn cleaning tools which i will do at next gun show. Thanks again guys.

August 5, 2013, 07:04 PM	#11
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	If you used 100 patches to clean the bore, you're using about 85 too many, even if the bore was really bad. Again, run a patch with solvent through the bore and let soak at least 30 minutes, DEPENDING on what the bottle label says. Then run another wet patch through. If you see copper stains, just let it soak longer and try again. Also note that you need to recognize the difference between copper fouling and staining caused by the brass clean rod tip. The tip may leave a slight stain on the patch, but once you understand what it is, you won't be fooled. To prevent this some people use plastic cleaning rod tips, but be aware that plastic tips have a bad habit of breaking off in the rod. The "secret" to bore cleaning is to give the solvent time to soak and let the solvent do the cleaning.