Small Lathe for Amateur Gunsmith

DeBee · October 2, 2001, 11:12 PM

I think the time has come for me to get a lathe into my shop for non-production type gunsmithing and experimentation.

I'm leaning toward a South Bend- probably lightly used- it's what I learned the rudementals on in school shop class...

Now, 9" or 10" ? How long should the bed be? How will I be able to tell if I can just plug it into the wall? What's all this phase converter talk? There is a nice lathe on Ebay- South Bend 10K 42" bed- at 700 lbs, might be a little heavy to angle into my basement...

What tooling would be most helpful to the gunsmith?

How about milling attachments...?

Any references, books, sites, or advise helpful...

George Stringer · October 3, 2001, 08:41 AM

Debee, I would want at least a 24" bed but the hole size through the spindle needs to be large enough to accept the rest of a bbl. Quick change tool posts are nice but I got along for years with a rocker. You'll need a steady rest, a Jacobs Chuck and a 4 jaw chuck is preferable and more accurate than a 3 jaw. I don't do any milling in my lathe but Brownells sells a vise that attaches to the compound. You hold the work there and put the cutter in the chuck. George

DeBee · October 3, 2001, 09:36 AM

George-

The 10" is going to be to big and heavy. A 9" x 36" South Bend with cabinet, I'm told, takes up less space and is about 350 lbs. - somewhat portable- in case I move...

Hole size is .75" That seems small. Will this prevent me from threading barrels?

Can you thread between the centers? Is it as accurate? I don't want to waste my time if the results aren't the best they be.

I like the Palmgren machining attachment... I won't be milling stainless Mauser actions from bar stock or anything- just simple cuts.

Do you anticipate any severe limitations with a smaller lathe?

C.R.Sam · October 3, 2001, 11:24 AM

If you can handle it, go for the larger. Other factors being equal, usually a heavier lathe is steadier and thus easier to do fine work on small turnings. Larger headstock shaft hole will often come in handy for projects that are still unthought of.

Sam

DeBee · October 3, 2001, 12:28 PM

Damn. Everyone is counseling me to go for the larger lathe...

The larger lathe is the South Bend 10k, 10" x 42" with cabinet. I would need a phase converter or so the rep says. They are not familiar with the needs of a gunsmith at all...

Hole size is .85" and overall length is 51" and 2 feet deep.
I know that heavier is better for accuracy and stability.

At the moment, I can't envision cutting anything with a larger diameter than a receiver- why would I need a 10" or even a 9" swing? Would the larger lathe be better for milling?

George Stringer · October 3, 2001, 12:58 PM

Debee, I see a missed part of your first question. Phase convertors are used for 3 phase motors when there is only single phase power available. I have only single phase running to the shop but both my lathe and my mill are 3 phase so I have a rotary convertor hooked up outside that allows me to run either or both at the same time if need be. That detail will be in the specs of your lathe. All will tell whether they are 3 or single phase motors.

The hole diameter won't stop you from turning threads. I always do any turning on a barrel and threading between centers. The bores are not always concentric to the outside of the barrel and accuracy depends on the shanks and threads to be turned on the same axis as the bore. But this is where the bed length comes in. You can't do that if there isn't enough distance between the centers.

The reason you need the larger swing is that everything is in relation to that normally. For instance a 9x24, 10x36 etc and you might be surprised at what you end up turning sometimes when you might be making a jig or something not even related to gunsmithing.

My lathe is a 18"x48" and weighs around 600lbs or so I was told. My advise is to get the biggest, heaviest you can afford/fit in and try to get one that is able to cut metric threads as well. A quick change gear box is also nice to have.

George

kurt IA. · October 3, 2001, 05:57 PM

George told it like it is. My smalest lathe is a 13x36 and its too short a bed to turn with a steady rest. I would sugest a lathe with at lest a 1 5/8" hole in the head stock, and 40" between centers, phase converters need 220 voltage, as do most single phase also. My maine lathe is a 15x48 and ways in at 3300 lb, the other is a 14x40 at 2300 and the 13x36 is 800lb.

DeBee · October 3, 2001, 11:08 PM

Haha! I love this...

At first, I was going to get a mini lathe. Then someone mentioned I wouldn't be able to thread barrels... so I thought about it, did some research, and found the bench lathe-- supposed to be good for hobbyists... still won't do the tricks I want... Now, even the biggest lathe I was considering doesn't seem to be enough...

I can see this is going to be as expensive as gun collecting itself...

George Stringer · October 4, 2001, 08:36 AM

Debee, there are probably thousands of smiths doing all manner of barrel work in bench type lathes. They don't have to be huge but the bigger the better. Mine is huge but it's just because I got a great deal on it. $750 plus $70 to have it hauled to my shop. What you have to make sure of is that it is large enough one way or the other to do what you want to do with it. If a 24" barrel will sit between the centers then it's big enough for threading. If you can get an inch or so in the chuck with the chamber end in a steady rest and have room for your tailstock/reamer set up then again it's big enough. And if it's big enough to do what you want to do then as long as it's bolted down and level you'll do fine. But I would want the biggest I could afford or fit in my shop. George

Rottweiler · October 4, 2001, 09:30 AM

When you finally decide on that lathe and find out that it only comes with 3 phase power and you can't get 3 phase power with a SUBSTANTIAL "donation" to your power company. email me, I have a very good set of plans complete with pictures to build a phase converter that will fix that problem for you. It does work, Ive built 3 of them.

4 Eyed Six Shooter · October 4, 2001, 09:58 AM

DeBee, A used South Bend would be a great buy if it comes at the right price. A 36" or 40" lathe would be best. As long as you are making the investment you will want to get something that will do the jobs you will likely encounter in the future.
If you want to buy new may I suggest the 40" lathe from ENCO.
It is around $3,000 and comes with just about everything you will need to get started. It is not as nice as a new $10,000 lathe, but works very well and is accurite. I have threaded and chambered many rifle barrels with it and the results were outstanding. It took five men and a boy to get it into my basement shop. It runs on 220V single phase.
Those of you who want a small lathe for turning fireing pins etc., check out the 10" lathe at Harbor Freight. It can be had for $350. and works well for small parts.

Good Shooting to all, John K

DeBee · October 4, 2001, 11:40 AM

Ok, it is looking like the 10" South Bend.

This is a cabinet lathe and it actually takes up less space depthwise than the 9" ...

I have no electrical skills whatsoever. I can plug it in. I can change a lightbulb. Don't touch the third rail... that's about all I know...

It is 3 phase. Comes with 4 jaw chuck, quick change gears, and 4 position tool post among other goodies. Looks brand new.

The only thing holding me back is the electrical works. I doubt I could "build" a phase converter but thank you for the offer- I might get the plans and have someone else build one. Can I buy one? Where/How much?

Mo Money Mo Money... my gun budget is blown for months and months to come... How many barrels would I have to install to breakeven?

Rottweiler · October 4, 2001, 01:05 PM

If you can chamber and headspace a rifle you have all the skills and mental capacity needed to build a phase converter.
You can build a phase converter for about 1/3 what you can buy one for.

Celt · October 8, 2001, 08:22 PM

Depends on what you want to spend.
I just bought a brand new Wilton 14 x 40 geared head. It was a little over 4K.
It is a very nice lathe for the money.
Celt

DeBee · October 11, 2001, 10:44 AM

OK, I lost the bid for the lathe.

Dammit! I hate those auctions. The lathe went for more than double what I wanted to pay and that's not including shipping $265 and palletizing $50... Still looking. Alot of sellers confusing bed size and "between the centers" measurements making things tougher...

How critical is the between the center measurements to barrel making?

I mean, if the spindle diameter is 1 3/8" I should be able to feed some portion of the barrel through the spindle and work on the other half in the steady rest, right?

If the longest barrel I will ever work on will be 24" then I will need 24" between the centers... Would this just be for polishing?
So you use a tool post grinder or do it by hand?

Does anyone still order a barrel blank and contour themselves? Is this worth the work?

I can see I need more information for the set up and barrelling actions... Can anyone recommend good books, links or other information on lathe setup, barrel making and barrelling actions? Thanks.

kurt IA. · October 11, 2001, 02:46 PM

Ok with 1 3/8" through hole you will be able to do 99% of the barrel work. Most blanks are 1.200 to 1.250 dia, and 28 to 29" long. The bed length is ok, unless you want to do longer barrels, and remember that you will have a reamer, reamer holder, and posible a drill chuck in the tail stock. this will shorten your bed length. It sometimes comes up that you will need to reconture a barrel, and yes I conture my own, about 50% of the time. I don't chamber the way Goerge does, and I don,t use a steady rest. My way is through the head stock, not that its any better, just that I'am more use to it, and its the way I learned. Keep in mind the size of actions too, with a large hole in the head stock you don't need to remove the barrel to recrown, 1 3/8 will get a Rem in but just. I pollish by hand.

Bogie · October 12, 2001, 03:59 PM

Suggestion: Ask this question again over at www.benchrest.com - Some of those guys are among the best precision smiths around, and they KNOW lathes...

October 2, 2001, 11:12 PM	#1
DeBee Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 1999 Posts: 408	Small Lathe for Amateur Gunsmith I think the time has come for me to get a lathe into my shop for non-production type gunsmithing and experimentation. I'm leaning toward a South Bend- probably lightly used- it's what I learned the rudementals on in school shop class... Now, 9" or 10" ? How long should the bed be? How will I be able to tell if I can just plug it into the wall? What's all this phase converter talk? There is a nice lathe on Ebay- South Bend 10K 42" bed- at 700 lbs, might be a little heavy to angle into my basement... What tooling would be most helpful to the gunsmith? How about milling attachments...? Any references, books, sites, or advise helpful...

October 4, 2001, 09:30 AM	#10
Rottweiler Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2001 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 391	When you finally decide on that lathe and find out that it only comes with 3 phase power and you can't get 3 phase power with a SUBSTANTIAL "donation" to your power company. email me, I have a very good set of plans complete with pictures to build a phase converter that will fix that problem for you. It does work, Ive built 3 of them. __________________ Texas - envied by lesser states since 1845

October 4, 2001, 09:58 AM	#11
4 Eyed Six Shooter Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2001 Location: Idaho Posts: 105	DeBee, A used South Bend would be a great buy if it comes at the right price. A 36" or 40" lathe would be best. As long as you are making the investment you will want to get something that will do the jobs you will likely encounter in the future. If you want to buy new may I suggest the 40" lathe from ENCO. It is around $3,000 and comes with just about everything you will need to get started. It is not as nice as a new $10,000 lathe, but works very well and is accurite. I have threaded and chambered many rifle barrels with it and the results were outstanding. It took five men and a boy to get it into my basement shop. It runs on 220V single phase. Those of you who want a small lathe for turning fireing pins etc., check out the 10" lathe at Harbor Freight. It can be had for $350. and works well for small parts. Good Shooting to all, John K __________________ www.savagegunsmithing.com Fight Crime-Shoot Back!!!! Anyone worth shooting is worth shooting more than once!!!

October 4, 2001, 01:05 PM	#13
Rottweiler Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2001 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 391	If you can chamber and headspace a rifle you have all the skills and mental capacity needed to build a phase converter. You can build a phase converter for about 1/3 what you can buy one for. __________________ Texas - envied by lesser states since 1845

October 12, 2001, 03:59 PM	#17
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	Suggestion: Ask this question again over at www.benchrest.com - Some of those guys are among the best precision smiths around, and they KNOW lathes... __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

October 3, 2001, 08:41 AM	#2
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	Debee, I would want at least a 24" bed but the hole size through the spindle needs to be large enough to accept the rest of a bbl. Quick change tool posts are nice but I got along for years with a rocker. You'll need a steady rest, a Jacobs Chuck and a 4 jaw chuck is preferable and more accurate than a 3 jaw. I don't do any milling in my lathe but Brownells sells a vise that attaches to the compound. You hold the work there and put the cutter in the chuck. George

October 3, 2001, 09:36 AM	#3
DeBee Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 1999 Posts: 408	George- The 10" is going to be to big and heavy. A 9" x 36" South Bend with cabinet, I'm told, takes up less space and is about 350 lbs. - somewhat portable- in case I move... Hole size is .75" That seems small. Will this prevent me from threading barrels? Can you thread between the centers? Is it as accurate? I don't want to waste my time if the results aren't the best they be. I like the Palmgren machining attachment... I won't be milling stainless Mauser actions from bar stock or anything- just simple cuts. Do you anticipate any severe limitations with a smaller lathe?

October 3, 2001, 11:24 AM	#4
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	If you can handle it, go for the larger. Other factors being equal, usually a heavier lathe is steadier and thus easier to do fine work on small turnings. Larger headstock shaft hole will often come in handy for projects that are still unthought of. Sam

October 3, 2001, 12:28 PM	#5
DeBee Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 1999 Posts: 408	Damn. Everyone is counseling me to go for the larger lathe... The larger lathe is the South Bend 10k, 10" x 42" with cabinet. I would need a phase converter or so the rep says. They are not familiar with the needs of a gunsmith at all... Hole size is .85" and overall length is 51" and 2 feet deep. I know that heavier is better for accuracy and stability. At the moment, I can't envision cutting anything with a larger diameter than a receiver- why would I need a 10" or even a 9" swing? Would the larger lathe be better for milling?

October 3, 2001, 12:58 PM	#6
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	Debee, I see a missed part of your first question. Phase convertors are used for 3 phase motors when there is only single phase power available. I have only single phase running to the shop but both my lathe and my mill are 3 phase so I have a rotary convertor hooked up outside that allows me to run either or both at the same time if need be. That detail will be in the specs of your lathe. All will tell whether they are 3 or single phase motors. The hole diameter won't stop you from turning threads. I always do any turning on a barrel and threading between centers. The bores are not always concentric to the outside of the barrel and accuracy depends on the shanks and threads to be turned on the same axis as the bore. But this is where the bed length comes in. You can't do that if there isn't enough distance between the centers. The reason you need the larger swing is that everything is in relation to that normally. For instance a 9x24, 10x36 etc and you might be surprised at what you end up turning sometimes when you might be making a jig or something not even related to gunsmithing. My lathe is a 18"x48" and weighs around 600lbs or so I was told. My advise is to get the biggest, heaviest you can afford/fit in and try to get one that is able to cut metric threads as well. A quick change gear box is also nice to have. George

October 3, 2001, 05:57 PM	#7
kurt IA. Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 141	George told it like it is. My smalest lathe is a 13x36 and its too short a bed to turn with a steady rest. I would sugest a lathe with at lest a 1 5/8" hole in the head stock, and 40" between centers, phase converters need 220 voltage, as do most single phase also. My maine lathe is a 15x48 and ways in at 3300 lb, the other is a 14x40 at 2300 and the 13x36 is 800lb.

October 3, 2001, 11:08 PM	#8
DeBee Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 1999 Posts: 408	Haha! I love this... At first, I was going to get a mini lathe. Then someone mentioned I wouldn't be able to thread barrels... so I thought about it, did some research, and found the bench lathe-- supposed to be good for hobbyists... still won't do the tricks I want... Now, even the biggest lathe I was considering doesn't seem to be enough... I can see this is going to be as expensive as gun collecting itself...

October 4, 2001, 08:36 AM	#9
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	Debee, there are probably thousands of smiths doing all manner of barrel work in bench type lathes. They don't have to be huge but the bigger the better. Mine is huge but it's just because I got a great deal on it. $750 plus $70 to have it hauled to my shop. What you have to make sure of is that it is large enough one way or the other to do what you want to do with it. If a 24" barrel will sit between the centers then it's big enough for threading. If you can get an inch or so in the chuck with the chamber end in a steady rest and have room for your tailstock/reamer set up then again it's big enough. And if it's big enough to do what you want to do then as long as it's bolted down and level you'll do fine. But I would want the biggest I could afford or fit in my shop. George

October 4, 2001, 11:40 AM	#12
DeBee Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 1999 Posts: 408	Ok, it is looking like the 10" South Bend. This is a cabinet lathe and it actually takes up less space depthwise than the 9" ... I have no electrical skills whatsoever. I can plug it in. I can change a lightbulb. Don't touch the third rail... that's about all I know... It is 3 phase. Comes with 4 jaw chuck, quick change gears, and 4 position tool post among other goodies. Looks brand new. The only thing holding me back is the electrical works. I doubt I could "build" a phase converter but thank you for the offer- I might get the plans and have someone else build one. Can I buy one? Where/How much? Mo Money Mo Money... my gun budget is blown for months and months to come... How many barrels would I have to install to breakeven?

October 8, 2001, 08:22 PM	#14
Celt Member Join Date: August 10, 2000 Posts: 64	Depends on what you want to spend. I just bought a brand new Wilton 14 x 40 geared head. It was a little over 4K. It is a very nice lathe for the money. Celt

October 11, 2001, 10:44 AM	#15
DeBee Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 1999 Posts: 408	OK, I lost the bid for the lathe. Dammit! I hate those auctions. The lathe went for more than double what I wanted to pay and that's not including shipping $265 and palletizing $50... Still looking. Alot of sellers confusing bed size and "between the centers" measurements making things tougher... How critical is the between the center measurements to barrel making? I mean, if the spindle diameter is 1 3/8" I should be able to feed some portion of the barrel through the spindle and work on the other half in the steady rest, right? If the longest barrel I will ever work on will be 24" then I will need 24" between the centers... Would this just be for polishing? So you use a tool post grinder or do it by hand? Does anyone still order a barrel blank and contour themselves? Is this worth the work? I can see I need more information for the set up and barrelling actions... Can anyone recommend good books, links or other information on lathe setup, barrel making and barrelling actions? Thanks.

October 11, 2001, 02:46 PM	#16
kurt IA. Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 141	Ok with 1 3/8" through hole you will be able to do 99% of the barrel work. Most blanks are 1.200 to 1.250 dia, and 28 to 29" long. The bed length is ok, unless you want to do longer barrels, and remember that you will have a reamer, reamer holder, and posible a drill chuck in the tail stock. this will shorten your bed length. It sometimes comes up that you will need to reconture a barrel, and yes I conture my own, about 50% of the time. I don't chamber the way Goerge does, and I don,t use a steady rest. My way is through the head stock, not that its any better, just that I'am more use to it, and its the way I learned. Keep in mind the size of actions too, with a large hole in the head stock you don't need to remove the barrel to recrown, 1 3/8 will get a Rem in but just. I pollish by hand.