Looking for any info on an old BP rifle

markm_04 · November 13, 2013, 04:01 AM

I found an old Black Powder rifle in the attic at my parents house this past weekend and I would like a little bit of help gathering some information on it if anyone could help.

I has a very heavy octagon barrel, the only markings on top of the barrel are "J COMP" and the only other words are on the side plate behind the hammer it says "ATKINSON WARRANTED". It has alot of engravings on and around the hammer depicting what I believe is a turkey and a couple of ducks that are in flight. It also has very small brass tacks on top of the stock and on both sides that are driven into the wood to make designs and the initials JM. I dont know if these were originally on the stock or if they were put there by a later owner. It has a couple of old patches and one ball in the patch holder on the side of the stock, the trigger guard is all brass and has two lips that curl down below, it has two triggers, one to lock the hammer back and the other to fire it.

Any information on it would be very helpful, I am looking to find out how old the gun is, where it was made, who made it and anything else. My dad says that he remembers my great grandfather shooting the gun when he was very little but knows nothing of its origins.

Hawg · November 13, 2013, 05:33 AM

You're going to have to post good clear pics. The rear trigger sets the front trigger for a lighter pull. It will fire with just the front one but the pull will be heavier. Cock the hammer and then pull the rear trigger. That sets the front trigger.

markm_04 · November 13, 2013, 05:47 AM

I will have to get some pictures off of my phone and on to here. I knew that adding pictures would help, I just dont have the capability of doing that at this time and thought I would get the ball rolling hoping that it might be familiar to someone on here.

markm_04 · November 13, 2013, 08:55 AM

Here are a few pictures of the gun...

McShooty · November 13, 2013, 12:09 PM

You have a very nice piece there! I hope someone can give you more information on it.

tahunua001 · November 13, 2013, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Looking for any info on an old BP rifle

BP makes oil spills... not rifles....

in all seriousness though it looks like a rifle much newer than you would expect, from probably 50s or 60s. I've come across a few "help me identify this" threads regarding Atkinson muzzle loaders but none of them appear to be the same model, all very ornate, and nobody knows anything about them which leads me to believe that they are custom made. one guy said he thinks his is a 35 or 36 caliber, if so it is not legal for hunting in many states and would only be good for target shooting. I did come across an auction without pics and very basic description which lists as 52 caliber, another goofball caliber which is not incredibly common among BP shooters today.

Jim Watson · November 13, 2013, 07:00 PM

I did the same search and came to the conclusion that Atkinson was the lockmaker. The rifle was probably built by J. Comp, whoever that might have been.

Any road, it is a nice piece. Condition is not obvious from the phone pictures, I don't know whether it is strictly a wall hanger or something to be shot.

PetahW · November 13, 2013, 07:06 PM

.

You appear to have what's known as a "40-rod gun" (target distance) from the 1850's-1870's.

You will find the most info about your back-action gun by obtaining a copy of Ned Robert's The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle from Amazon/etc - which has many pics and a listing of gunmakers.

Since the balls came with the rifle, I would measure the one from the rifle's patchbox to determine the caliber.

.

markm_04 · November 13, 2013, 08:45 PM

Thank you for the information so far it has been really helpful. I didn't know where to start and that book might be a good reference. There is a piece missing underneath where the hammer is at, but it does not seem that it would affect the functionality of the gun. From the looks of the gun it appears as though it probably could be fired but I don't think I want to try it and risk any damage. The wood is in good shape on the forend and stock and the barrel actually has very minimal rust and appears to be coated with some kind of brown material, not paint I don't think. There are quite a few nicks and scratches on most of the gun but that is kind of expected from a gun that is older and has been used. Do you know if the brass tacks that are in the side of the stock are original or added at a later date? Also the very small markings on the patch box cover and on the small metal plate on the side of the forend appear to be hand done as they are irregularly shaped and spaced.

Jim Watson · November 13, 2013, 09:04 PM

Looks like there was some sort of guard screwed to the stock around the drum.

The brown appearance may be due to an actual coating (varnish) applied by somebody or it may be the original finish, browning the steel by controlled oxidation (rusting).

I know no way to tell if the brass tack ornamentation is original or added, but I don't think I would want all those tack heads on the cheekpiece under my face.

The apprentice grade engraving on the patchbox and wedge plates is a common effort to dress up guns of the type.

James K · November 14, 2013, 09:46 PM

First, I have no doubt that the gun is old and original, not a repro or fake.

I can find a Joel Atkinson, of Parkesburg, KY, working from 1877 to 1883. That is late for percussion but then that was a conservative area. He is described as a maker of percussion .48 caliber half stock rifles, and also of over and under double guns with one barrel rifled, the other smooth bored. His son, Wyatt, is mentioned as following his father in the gun trade, but there are no details.

Usually, the name on the lock plate is the name of the lock maker, but sometimes the gun maker did put his name on the lockplate. The name on the barrel is likely the original purchaser, though it could be the maker.

Jim

bedbugbilly · November 14, 2013, 10:01 PM

OP - go over to the link below and post some good clear photos on the "antique gun collecting" forum. Give all the markings, where they are, approx. bore size - such things as barrel length and what the barrel measures across the flats, etc.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php

Your rifle appears to be a well made rifle - probably circa 1850's + or - - in a "plains style" half stock with a poured nose cap. There are a lot of good resources over there in regards to makers which is probably the name on top of the barrel. Your rifle has a back action lock and many gunmakers of that period would purchase locks, triggers (set triggers), etc. to use in building the rifle. The name on the lock is the lock maker. Many times, rifles such as these can be attributed to different geographical areas as far as origin due to their style and architecture - such things as stock shape, trigger guard styles, etc. when known rifles with the same or similar markings, style are already know and attributed to certain makers. You might find out quite a bit or records of the maker may not exist or be known. You can't always depend on information that may have been published in a book or a photo of another gun that "looks like it" - just because it's "published" doesn't mean the information is correct. Constant research brings out new information that was not previously known.

You've got a nice rifle - I hope you hang on to it. If you know anything of the history of it - if it's known, include it in your inquiry over there. Also let them know where you are in terms of a general location. It may be that the rifle was made fairly close to your location or it may be that it was made elsewhere and ended up where you are as a result of the movement westward.

Good luck and hopefully you can find out some information on it.

RJay · November 15, 2013, 05:37 PM

Good luck with that forum, I tried 7 times to register with no luck

markm_04 · November 16, 2013, 05:27 AM

I have submitted my request to join that forum and am now waiting for approval.

I asked my grandmother if she knew anything about that rifle and she told me that she remembers "grandpap giving that gun to daddy when I was little" so that places the gun in the hands of my great-great-grandfather, beyond that it is unknown. I do know that my grandmothers grandparents were a really poor family (much like many others of the time I am sure) so I dont know whether the gun was considered very expensive at the time and was a great investment for them or if it was just something that they considered vary valuable and it was important for them to make sure that it stayed in the family and was passed down through the generations.

Either way I am having a great time learning about this rifle and the more I come to learn the more I am cherishing it. I have not found any information that tells of any kind of value by todays standards and although I would like to know a ballpark estimate, I dont rightly care as this seems to have more value to me and my family now than any monetary value.

Thanks everyone for the information so far, as I learn more I will be happy to pass any information along to anyone who is interested. I also found that book on Amazon for about $10, think I might get it and just keep it with the rifle.

PetahW · November 17, 2013, 02:25 PM

.

They typically sell for $1500-$2500, depending on condition.

.

Hawg · November 17, 2013, 03:07 PM

Quote:

They typically sell for $1500-$2500, depending on condition.

That sounds like an awful lot. I only found one similar that sold at auction and it was listed as a fowler and only went for 150.00. I wouldn't expect a rifle to bring much more

http://www.liveauctionworld.com/Perc...wn-p_i17013016

tahunua001 · November 17, 2013, 07:03 PM

every auction I've seen for rifles with similar markings sold for $150 to $250... approximately a tenth of what was previously quoted and those were in excellent condition.

James K · November 17, 2013, 11:45 PM

There were so many rifles made by so many small shops in that general era that valuation is difficult. First, there is the gun itself. Rifles usually bring more than shotguns. Then there is the time frame in which it was made, its condition, and its maker. Early guns by known makers and in top condition bring most.

Then there is historical association. A rifle known to have been owned by, say, Davy Crockett, will bring a whole lot more money than one owned by Joe Jones.

Then, as always, there is the difference between an asking price and a sale price, and between a retail price and a wholesale price (what a dealer will sell a gun for and what he will buy it for).

My own experience would be that that rifle would fall between those figures; it probably wouldn't bring $2500 but it would almost certainly go for more than $150. I would say around $1000 depending on the buyer and the circumstances.

Jim

November 13, 2013, 04:01 AM	#1
markm_04 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2013 Location: Maysville, MO Posts: 111	Looking for any info on an old BP rifle I found an old Black Powder rifle in the attic at my parents house this past weekend and I would like a little bit of help gathering some information on it if anyone could help. I has a very heavy octagon barrel, the only markings on top of the barrel are "J COMP" and the only other words are on the side plate behind the hammer it says "ATKINSON WARRANTED". It has alot of engravings on and around the hammer depicting what I believe is a turkey and a couple of ducks that are in flight. It also has very small brass tacks on top of the stock and on both sides that are driven into the wood to make designs and the initials JM. I dont know if these were originally on the stock or if they were put there by a later owner. It has a couple of old patches and one ball in the patch holder on the side of the stock, the trigger guard is all brass and has two lips that curl down below, it has two triggers, one to lock the hammer back and the other to fire it. Any information on it would be very helpful, I am looking to find out how old the gun is, where it was made, who made it and anything else. My dad says that he remembers my great grandfather shooting the gun when he was very little but knows nothing of its origins.

November 14, 2013, 10:01 PM	#12
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	OP - go over to the link below and post some good clear photos on the "antique gun collecting" forum. Give all the markings, where they are, approx. bore size - such things as barrel length and what the barrel measures across the flats, etc. http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php Your rifle appears to be a well made rifle - probably circa 1850's + or - - in a "plains style" half stock with a poured nose cap. There are a lot of good resources over there in regards to makers which is probably the name on top of the barrel. Your rifle has a back action lock and many gunmakers of that period would purchase locks, triggers (set triggers), etc. to use in building the rifle. The name on the lock is the lock maker. Many times, rifles such as these can be attributed to different geographical areas as far as origin due to their style and architecture - such things as stock shape, trigger guard styles, etc. when known rifles with the same or similar markings, style are already know and attributed to certain makers. You might find out quite a bit or records of the maker may not exist or be known. You can't always depend on information that may have been published in a book or a photo of another gun that "looks like it" - just because it's "published" doesn't mean the information is correct. Constant research brings out new information that was not previously known. You've got a nice rifle - I hope you hang on to it. If you know anything of the history of it - if it's known, include it in your inquiry over there. Also let them know where you are in terms of a general location. It may be that the rifle was made fairly close to your location or it may be that it was made elsewhere and ended up where you are as a result of the movement westward. Good luck and hopefully you can find out some information on it. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

November 15, 2013, 05:37 PM	#13
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Good luck with that forum, I tried 7 times to register with no luck __________________ Ron James

November 17, 2013, 07:03 PM	#17
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	every auction I've seen for rifles with similar markings sold for $150 to $250... approximately a tenth of what was previously quoted and those were in excellent condition. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

November 13, 2013, 05:33 AM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	You're going to have to post good clear pics. The rear trigger sets the front trigger for a lighter pull. It will fire with just the front one but the pull will be heavier. Cock the hammer and then pull the rear trigger. That sets the front trigger.

November 13, 2013, 05:47 AM	#3
markm_04 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2013 Location: Maysville, MO Posts: 111	I will have to get some pictures off of my phone and on to here. I knew that adding pictures would help, I just dont have the capability of doing that at this time and thought I would get the ball rolling hoping that it might be familiar to someone on here.

November 13, 2013, 12:09 PM	#5
McShooty Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2012 Location: Northern Missouri Posts: 480	You have a very nice piece there! I hope someone can give you more information on it.

November 13, 2013, 07:00 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	I did the same search and came to the conclusion that Atkinson was the lockmaker. The rifle was probably built by J. Comp, whoever that might have been. Any road, it is a nice piece. Condition is not obvious from the phone pictures, I don't know whether it is strictly a wall hanger or something to be shot.

November 13, 2013, 07:06 PM	#8
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. You appear to have what's known as a "40-rod gun" (target distance) from the 1850's-1870's. You will find the most info about your back-action gun by obtaining a copy of Ned Robert's The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle from Amazon/etc - which has many pics and a listing of gunmakers. Since the balls came with the rifle, I would measure the one from the rifle's patchbox to determine the caliber. .

November 13, 2013, 09:04 PM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Looks like there was some sort of guard screwed to the stock around the drum. The brown appearance may be due to an actual coating (varnish) applied by somebody or it may be the original finish, browning the steel by controlled oxidation (rusting). I know no way to tell if the brass tack ornamentation is original or added, but I don't think I would want all those tack heads on the cheekpiece under my face. The apprentice grade engraving on the patchbox and wedge plates is a common effort to dress up guns of the type.

November 14, 2013, 09:46 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	First, I have no doubt that the gun is old and original, not a repro or fake. I can find a Joel Atkinson, of Parkesburg, KY, working from 1877 to 1883. That is late for percussion but then that was a conservative area. He is described as a maker of percussion .48 caliber half stock rifles, and also of over and under double guns with one barrel rifled, the other smooth bored. His son, Wyatt, is mentioned as following his father in the gun trade, but there are no details. Usually, the name on the lock plate is the name of the lock maker, but sometimes the gun maker did put his name on the lockplate. The name on the barrel is likely the original purchaser, though it could be the maker. Jim

November 16, 2013, 05:27 AM	#14
markm_04 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2013 Location: Maysville, MO Posts: 111	I have submitted my request to join that forum and am now waiting for approval. I asked my grandmother if she knew anything about that rifle and she told me that she remembers "grandpap giving that gun to daddy when I was little" so that places the gun in the hands of my great-great-grandfather, beyond that it is unknown. I do know that my grandmothers grandparents were a really poor family (much like many others of the time I am sure) so I dont know whether the gun was considered very expensive at the time and was a great investment for them or if it was just something that they considered vary valuable and it was important for them to make sure that it stayed in the family and was passed down through the generations. Either way I am having a great time learning about this rifle and the more I come to learn the more I am cherishing it. I have not found any information that tells of any kind of value by todays standards and although I would like to know a ballpark estimate, I dont rightly care as this seems to have more value to me and my family now than any monetary value. Thanks everyone for the information so far, as I learn more I will be happy to pass any information along to anyone who is interested. I also found that book on Amazon for about $10, think I might get it and just keep it with the rifle.

November 17, 2013, 02:25 PM	#15
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. They typically sell for $1500-$2500, depending on condition. .

November 17, 2013, 11:45 PM	#18
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	There were so many rifles made by so many small shops in that general era that valuation is difficult. First, there is the gun itself. Rifles usually bring more than shotguns. Then there is the time frame in which it was made, its condition, and its maker. Early guns by known makers and in top condition bring most. Then there is historical association. A rifle known to have been owned by, say, Davy Crockett, will bring a whole lot more money than one owned by Joe Jones. Then, as always, there is the difference between an asking price and a sale price, and between a retail price and a wholesale price (what a dealer will sell a gun for and what he will buy it for). My own experience would be that that rifle would fall between those figures; it probably wouldn't bring $2500 but it would almost certainly go for more than $150. I would say around $1000 depending on the buyer and the circumstances. Jim