Fatal Shooting with Uzi

[SPEMack618]

When I heard it on the news this morning, I dismissed the anchor prattling about machine guns and continued shaving.

The lady friend yelled for me to watch it from the bed room when it looped again.

I can't fathom how that little girl must feel.

I was running the rifle range for the nursing program ROTC girls and one of them had an M-16A2, a frankengun really, run away on her, and she was real shaken up by it, and no one got hurt.

FA can be fun, heck it IS fun, but like every aspect of our passion, it has to be used correctly, and after proper instruction from qualified instructors.

[Slamfire]

A Gun Club which I compete at, a member gave a 9 year old girl a Mac 10 (45 ACP) to shoot. She could not control the thing and it climbed on her. The firing point is at the base of a rock quarry, must be a 100 yards to the top. One bullet cleared the backstop, sailed 1500 yards down range and hit a homeowner working on the roof of his house. The bullet slid for some distance went between the skin and the stomach, so luckily, the guy did not die. Cops came on site, confiscated everyone’s guns who were at the range. A lawsuit was pressed, don’t know what happened. I do know the range installed $100,000 of “range improvements” to reduce the risk of off axis bullets.

Gun ranges need to understand the liability of physically small children shooting fully automatic weapons.

If it is OK for small children to shoot fully automatic weapons, I guess it must be fine for them to drive semi tractor trailers. Or sit on the pilot’s seat of a helicopter. At Cave Creek AZ, a five year pushed the controls with her foot, everyone on board died. http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...20100214X92140

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Folks, if you post and you see it is deleted - the appropriate response is to PM a moderator. Complaining about it on the forum isn't going to do you any good.

We restore posts after discussions. Telling us that we are no good and you are the true defender of the RKBA and guardian of the galaxy is fun venting but not the way to go.

If a post is not relevant or a rule breaker, it goes. I've been deleted at times, so what.

[Machineguntony]

I'm in favor of banning all full auto and melting them into chess pieces.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by machineguntony

3. The instructor did not say something that is very important to tell inexperienced F/A shooters: "if you start to lose control of the gun, let go of the trigger, OK? OK? (wait for acknowledgement)."

While that instruction makes sense, part of the logic of the progression laid out by 4v50 Gary is that it isn't reasonable to expect a new shooter to recognize when she needs to let go of the trigger, or even recognize what she is doing as she begins to lose control.

It's essentially the same reason I wouldn't have started her on a 1911 with a full magazine. (Edit - I also have never started anyone on a 1911, but that is a distinguishable issue.)

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by zukiphile

While that instruction makes sense, part of the logic of the progression laid out by 4v50 Gary is that it isn't reasonable to expect a new shooter to recognize when she needs to let go of the trigger, or even recognize what she is doing as she begins to lose control...

And one also can't necessarily expect a beginner, especially a child, to be able to carry out that sort of instruction under stress. Panic response will often overrule reason.

[skoro]

Maybe I'm just too old to understand this.

Why would anyone think that handing a full auto weapon to a small child would be a good idea?

To me it makes as much sense as putting a 9 year old behind the wheel of a heavy duty manual shift truck in traffic.

An individual has to be at a certain level of physical/mental capability to perform some functions.

Isn't his common knowledge these days?

[Machineguntony]

I agree that reflex will overrule reason in a panic situation, but this is still something that has to be taught because some people just don't know what we perceive to be 'common sense'. Sometimes we take for granted what we know, an we assume that other people think the same as we do.

[Gary L. Griffiths]

Please stop writing or saying that F/A is more dangerous than non F/A. That simply is not true.

Sorry, but it IS true. A semi-auto won't have the issues of muzzle climb that a full-auto will. It's all well and good to teach a shooter to let go of the trigger if the gun starts to get away from him or her, but the instinctive reaction is to grasp the gun more tightly, thus keeping pressure on the trigger. Is there any doubt that this tragedy would have been orders-of-magnitude less likely to happen if the Uzi was set to semi-auto only?

The proper way to teach full-auto has already been mentioned; using magazines loaded with 3 and 5 rounds, progressing to a full magazine as the shooter becomes accustom to firing bursts. Even so, it is unrealistic to expect a small child to have the physical strength or fortitude to control a fully automatic weapon.

[Machineguntony]

Don't get mad when others try to ban black guns because it is the gun's fault that people are getting accidentally shot. You're making essentially the same argument in favor of gun control that gun control proponents use.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by skoro

Why would anyone think that handing a full auto weapon to a small child would be a good idea?

To me it makes as much sense as putting a 9 year old behind the wheel of a heavy duty manual shift truck in traffic.

I think the driving analogy is apt.

I started driving when I was 10. It was all at low speed on back roads, and I still remember how thrilling it was even with lots of limits and close supervision. I think I was 13 by the time I was allowed onto a limited access highway and remember how fast 55mph seemed in the little VW.

By the time I was old enough for driver's ed, the instructor felt comfortable enough to just talk about politics and his business as we drove around, and not pay much obvious attention.

What I get from that isn't that it is wrong to give a nine or 10 year old any specific firearm or vehicle, but that we owe that child (or any adult for that matter) the supervision he needs to learn effectively, enjoy the experience and avoid tragedy.

[Gary L. Griffiths]

You're making essentially the same argument in favor of gun control that gun control proponents use.

Not the same thing, and you know it!

The fact that the 1934 National Firearms Act is Unconstitutional is the elephant in the room that the judicial system is trying desperately to ignore.

Your argument that full-auto weapons are no more dangerous to shoot than semi-autos is much more convenient for the antis to use in arguing to ban semi-autos.

[Machineguntony]

Your bootstrapping fallacy is off.

You're also throwing your F/A brethren under the bus, just to save your semis. Lots of guys at trap and skeet clubs would be happy to tell you of the neverending dangers of semi auto black rifles. I personally think a semi auto AR is way more dangerous than a full auto AR. Let's ban those and make sure children stay away from those dangerous items.

[psalm7]

I can't beleave this happened agin thats like leaving a kid in a hot car after its been all over the news for decades . My Kids and Grand Kids started shooting around 5 years old but with long guns . I have seen adults that cant seem to keep all thier body parts behind subgun's and hand guns full auto or not . It's all about practice and training and common sence .

[FrankenMauser]

Originally Posted by Slamfire

If it is OK for small children to shoot fully automatic weapons, I guess it must be fine for them to drive semi tractor trailers. Or sit on the pilot’s seat of a helicopter. At Cave Creek AZ, a five year pushed the controls with her foot, everyone on board died. http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...20100214X92140

That's the byproduct of inexperience, not age.

This incident was caused by a gunner that was allowed to sit in the copilot's seat during an unauthorized "morale" flight. As the helicopter came in for landing and started to flare, the pilot couldn't increase collective pitch (think of it as your "power") and tried to temporarily compensate by pitching the nose up to burn off the little bit of remaining forward speed, to buy some time to turn the bird so that he wouldn't crash into vehicles that were right off the nose. He was successful in not hitting the vehicles and bystanders...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4kAaTXU91U

The "official" report cites pilot error and loss of engine power for the crash, but the reality of the situation** is that the gunner leaned over to look out the window for landing, and rested his knee on the collective stick. So, just when they needed control the most, allowing the gunner's lack of experience in the cockpit turned out to be a near-fatal* misjudgement.
*(One of the crew members had an 18 inch long splinter of titanium rotor blade spar stuck in his crash helmet. An inch lower... and it would have entered his skull through his eye socket.)
**(Don't believe 90% of military aircraft crash reports. They rarely tell the real story.)


Training and skill matter - not age.

[Slamfire]

And one also can't necessarily expect a beginner, especially a child, to be able to carry out that sort of instruction under stress. Panic response will often overrule reason.

I've seen kids run the wrong way in T ball. They just don't have the maturity for some weapon systems.

[Jim567]

Last month when I introduced my 15 year old daughter to semi auto pistols,my greatest fear was that she would loose control and fire multiple unintentional rounds.
As was noted in a prior post -
I started her on each pistol, one round, two round then 3 round and only then full magazine.
First the 9MM then the 45.
I am not a trained instructor. Still, the weapon escaping her control and firing multiple undirected rounds was hard on my mind.
My heart goes out to all.

[SPEMack618]

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

Training and skill matter - not age.

I would add that the quality of the training and trainer also matters. heavily.

The above discussions would have been rendered mute had the deceased not given the little girl an Uzi without instructing her as to what happens when you shoot a small SMG.

[Skans]

While I am not for laws telling parents what kind of firearms they can/cannot shoot while being properly supervised, I am having a hard time wondering why anyone would let an 9 year old girl who seemed very inexperienced at shooting anything, to fire a full-auto UZI.

For the record, I have a full-auto AC556 and wouldn't even consider letting my 11 year old daughter shoot it. She has fired both .22LR and .22 magnum from bolt action rifles since she was 9, but that's the limit of her experience.

The AC556 fires from a closed bolt and still has some muzzle rise and takes a firm grip to control. The UZI (and, yes, it was an UZI) fires from an open bolt which means that a large block of solid tool steel will be cycling back and forth in an unbuffered, un-compensated, pistol-length barrel gun. I personally can't see letting a 9 year old fire a full-auto short-barreled UZI. The fact that the parents were taking a video seems more like this was some kind of bragging-rights photo-op for the parents than it was an instructional event for the child.

[Jack_Bauer24]

It's stupidity for a 9yr. old to be shooting a select fire gun like that period, no matter instructor or not. That gun like all the other select fire and autos were not designed to be handled by 9yr. olds. It's like putting them be hind the wheel of a F1 or NASCAR race car at over 150 mph, not a good idea. They should stick to .22's until they are old and mature enough to handle such guns.

[rabbitslayer]

It's stupidity for a 9yr. old to be shooting a select fire gun like that period, no matter instructor or not. That gun like all the other select fire and autos were not designed to be handled by 9yr. olds. It's like putting them be hind the wheel of a F1 or NASCAR race car at over 150 mph, not a good idea. They should stick to .22's until they are old and mature enough to handle such guns.

I was going to state my opinion.. but Jack states my opinion exactly

[Hiker 1]

A close friend of mine used to own a Class 3 M-11 and let a girl he was dating fire it full auto. The same thing happened and she was 22 YO or so. Thankfully no one was hurt.

However, this incident was ridiculously negligent. A nice guy is dead, a little girl is traumatized and the antis will feed on this like jackals.

[Herluf]

Jack Bauer says what I would want to say also.

I'd add only that we limit at what ages a kid can buy various types of weapons, no reason we can't also limit at what ages kids can use certain weapons. It doesn't wound the second amendment to keep FA weapons out of the hands of minors.

[Tom Servo]

You're also throwing your F/A brethren under the bus, just to save your semis.

No he's not. Fully automatic weapons have their own training considerations, and the margin for error is smaller. That is a fact.

In the hands of an untrained shooter, they are more dangerous.

[olddav]

Two quick comments:
First, I'm to sure I would have used the term "gem" in the OP.
Second, FAs are more dangerous (difficult) to shoot safely than semi and single shots just as jet fighters are more dangerous (difficult) to fly that an ultralight. Not everyone will be able to master the skills required and age is part of the equation.