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August 16, 2013, 02:29 PM | #51 |
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Who you calling "people"?...
Ha ha ha!
Seriously, thanks for the correction. Lee Paige was the former DEA agent(who by all documented accounts was "undercover" when he did the gun safety briefing). I agree with the TFL members that new students need firearms to be shown how to use them but many teaching points or methods can use ASP red guns/Ring guns for safety. I had a security instructor a few years ago who claimed he was a former deputy sheriff & involved in 2 use of force shootings. He also said he was a US Army veteran(special forces/18 series). His classroom style & teaching methods were somewhat lacking in my opine. He constantly waved a unloaded Glock 19 around & had it in his hand for about 75% of the class. I didn't put much stock into his lesson plan(s) but it irked me that new gun owners/students would take away a lot of nonsense & bad techniques. |
August 16, 2013, 10:51 PM | #52 |
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Pax -
Re: your post #48: I take it, then, that you never handle a firearm in a gun shop, and run like hell if you see anyone else pick up a gun in a gun shop. I also take it that you only clean and service your firearms at a range, where the muzzles can always be kept pointed down-range at a berm or backstop. |
August 16, 2013, 11:26 PM | #53 | ||
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Quote:
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Case in point: Rule #1 is often stated "All guns are always loaded." This is a logical fallacy, and, IMHO, silly. I know that my gun is capable of having the ammunition removed. I can remove the magazine, rack the slide, open the cylender, run the extractor, and remove all ammunition from the gun. By advocating a rule that is PATENTLY FALSE, we are teaching people to BREAK THE RULES anytime we advocate dry fire practice, cleaning a weapon, etc. I do not believe hyperbolic rules lead to better safety, but rather lead to more carelessness. In the same vein, it seems as though Pax's statements of what a "Safe direction" are equally hyperbolic, pointed out by Aguila Blanca's rather pointed rebuttal. |
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August 17, 2013, 12:16 AM | #54 |
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on the other hand, no one would be safe when handling a gun in a gunstore. gosh, just putting it in a safe violates some rule about keeping it in a safe direction.
never know, your unloaded 22 mighht go off, put a round thorugh the roof and it might come down next door and hit the neighbor in his bomb shelter. air soft isnt going to get you trained on a real gun. Not one weapon ive touched in a gunstore needed plastic pellets or electric batteries to use. |
August 17, 2013, 10:19 PM | #55 | |
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Jimmy, I agree. Sort of.
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There are times one can't reasonably avoid having a gun indoors and in that situation a person must choose the SAFEST possible direction. A concrete wall 10 yards away or a drywall and frame ceiling is acceptable in that case IMO. Neither is perfect, but both greatly reduce the chance of someone receiving a fatal wound in the case of a ND. Sometimes "the bullet is going to hit a couple things losing energy and hopefully mass before it hits a living thing" is the best you can do. |
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August 17, 2013, 10:45 PM | #56 |
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Gun safety instructor shoots student
Nope.
The rule is All Guns Are Always Loaded. Dry fire practice, cleaning and gun shops are irrelevant. Naturally, we know that it's possible to unload a gun. That unloaded gun is still handled as a loaded gun because All Guns Are Always Loaded. You still don't dry fire while pointing it at your spouse. You still don't sweep every one in Gander Mountain. You still DO point it in a safe direction when cleaning unless the gun is disassembled, in which case it's not a gun anymore. If it were, it would still be loaded. Reducing the RULE to "treating" a gun "as if" it were loaded turns it into a little wink and nod game we play. It's not REALLY loaded, I'm just supposed to pretend it is. I know its not, so I can do this! BOOM! Oh crap! It WAS loaded. Accidents almost always happen with "unloaded" guns that were being treated as unloaded, safe guns that were in fact loaded and not safe. We don't "treat" guns as anything. All Guns Are Always Loaded. No room for games. No wink and a nod. The damn thing is loaded. |
August 18, 2013, 12:22 AM | #57 | ||
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Quote:
The NRA's three primary rule are (pay attention to #3): Quote:
Last edited by Aguila Blanca; August 18, 2013 at 12:15 PM. |
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August 18, 2013, 12:47 AM | #58 |
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fingers....
Not having your index finger on the firearm trigger is a important point.
Many new gun owners or service members tend to slip the finger on the trigger even when the weapon is not downrange or facing a threat. Taurus USA really got it right when they put a slight pad on the frame to rest your trigger finger. More gun firms should take note of this simple design. Human beings often use muscle memory and are put at ease by feeling or seeing something they know. |
August 18, 2013, 10:25 AM | #59 |
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Aquila, I would guess that circumstances like a 1911 are why they included "if possible" regarding the engaging the safety.
I have no use for the NRAs 3+10 system. Folks have enough trouble remembering 4 simple rules, 13 is ridiculous. I also feel like the wording makes them sound a lot less serious than they should be. There are plenty of safe directions that don't include gun ranges. At my own house, for example, if I know my family is in the front I can point the gun toward the back of the house. There's a berm back there and it would have to go through 5 or 6 walls to get there. I can point it down, depending on where I am, there may or may not be anything but wood/dirt below me. Besides that, it only takes about 2 seconds to remove the bolt/slide, it's not a gun anymore and I can handle it like any other block of metal/wood. The 4 Rules are why I despise gun shows. They're the only place I know where the rules seem to be suspended out of shear convenience. I believe every gun at a show should have its bolt removed or chamber flags used. I think the nonchalance at gun shows at least partially stems from the "wink and nod" attitude that comes from pretending that we're handling a gun "as if" it's loaded. What's the harm?! We all know it's not really loaded. We're just supposed to treat it "as if" it's loaded. But that would be very inconvenient at a gun show so, since we know we were only pretending anyway, we just disregard that rule. |
August 18, 2013, 10:34 AM | #60 |
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In one of Mas Ayoob's training videos, he talks about filling a large cooking pot with sand, and then placing a cactus in it for decoration. The sand-filled pot makes a backstop for dry-fire, loading/unloading, etc, but just looks like a potted cactus.
IE, we can use our imaginations and come up with ways to create safe directions. |
August 18, 2013, 10:51 AM | #61 | |
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Mindset and Situational Awareness !!!
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That is exactly how I present it and even though that may not be factual , It's the "Mindset" That I want new students to have and maintain. In class, when I first reveal a firearm, I have to present it this way and then proceed to "prove" to them that it isn't, by clearing it as I want them to do, afterwards. ..... Now then, as far as a safe direction, regardless of where you are, there is "always" one direction that is safer than the rest. We teach situational awareness where you have to read and measure your environment. I once recall a gun counter person, in a chain store, who showed me a handgun, after he cleared it and then directed me to point the muzzle behind the counter, in his direction. I asked him what, was above the ceiling and he said, nothing but the roof, that became my safe direction. ..... As far as the benefits of one on one tutoring, I agree but not realistic. Right now, I am working with one Grandson and so far this year, we have taught about 150 students. ..... Be Safe !!!
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'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing. |
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August 18, 2013, 12:22 PM | #62 | |
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But ... I'm a Boy Scout type. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do," and all that. When I'm teaching the "NRA Basic Pistol" class, the NRA says I have to teach the NRA's rules. It's their certificate I issue at the end, so I teach their curriculum and their rules. If I decide Cooper's rules are better (they are) and teach that ... I am no longer teaching the NRA class, I shouldn't be advertising or promoting it as the NRA class, and I shouldn't be issuing an NRA certificate of completion. That's just what is. If my state would accept the "Aguila Blanca Basic Handgun Safety" class as a prerequisite to issuing carry permits, I could teach Cooper's rules. But ... the state doesn't recognize the "Aguila Blanca Basic Handgun Safety" class, so we go with what we've got. If I happen to let slip during a break that there's a simpler set of rules that's easier to remember ... well, what happens in breaks stays in breaks. The point is, though, that many of us are so accustomed to Cooper's four rules that we forget the major national organization behind firearm safety training doesn't use those rules. |
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August 18, 2013, 02:25 PM | #63 |
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Gun safety instructor shoots student
Although being a little off topic regarding gun shows they are somewhat different from show to show depending on organization and operators. One show I attended was sponsored by a collectors club and no guns of any type were allowed through the door without at least a tie wrap through the action , mag well and or barrel. What ever the design they were unable to be fired with how the tie wraps were placed. There were even diagrams to show what was acceptable according to type and design.
Another show your somewhat on your honor to have your firearm checked at door to show unloaded and on your honor not to load once inside. At one of these shows I asked a vendor what the large glass jar was on his table filled with all types of caliber love rounds. His reply was it was all of the "Unloaded" firearms he has received. As far as a safe direction, every environment is different. Most times that would IMO be the ceiling when indoors, but not always. You can have one rule, three,,four,thirteen, doesn't matter when it comes to having good common sense. To me a desk or as in the video your foot, does not qualify for good common sense or safe directions. Neither is having someone hand you a gun and tell you it's unloaded, without checking it yourself. |
August 19, 2013, 11:26 AM | #64 | |
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I am still flabbergasted that some people believe you cannot dry fire while following the Four Rules. Here is a quote from one of the pages on my website.
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I do not believe that is a healthy mindset. Rule one does not mean, "Check the gun to be sure it is unloaded, then do whatever you want." The actual meaning of rule one is, "The safety rules always apply." pax |
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August 19, 2013, 11:33 AM | #65 |
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Here is the thing about checking to be sure it's unloaded - we are fallible, and we may forget that things have changed since we checked.
A non-firearm example, from yesterday. Got home recently from the sandbox, and took my motorcycle out for the first time since getting home. (Had family visiting, and other things that kept me from doing so before yesterday.) So I had to reconnect the battery, check tires, fluid levels, etc. Rode over to a buddy's house without incident. Shot the bull with him for a bit, then wanted to leave. I could not start the bike. Turned ignition and kill switches off, then on... nothing. Would have scratched my head, but that's hard to do through a helmet. Clutch squeezed? Yes. Kicked it into gear, back into neutral. Squeezed clutch again... still no start, and no electrical indications... Realized that the kickstand was down. I had dropped it while talking with my buddy, and had not registered that I had done so. The kickstand dropping will disable the ignition on my bike. So, in a similar way, it would not be hard to absent-mindedly insert the magazine or speed loader in the gun, after having checked it... |
August 19, 2013, 10:09 PM | #66 |
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I don't think visual and finger checking a chamber, then dropping the slide and saying "this gun is still loaded" is any more "wink and nod" than doing so and saying "Even though I just checked this gun and I know it isn't loaded to the extent humanly possible, I am still going to treat it as though it is loaded."
No normal human being is going to actually think the gun is loaded in either circumstance. A normal human being isn't going to take what they think is a lie seriously. Maybe if a drill sergeant pounds it into your head for a while, but then you might not be a normal human being. |
August 20, 2013, 10:41 AM | #67 |
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MLeake
I think you are right. The dangerous thing is the brain, the person. Not the gun. dc |
August 20, 2013, 01:31 PM | #68 | |
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The most flabbergasting part of this thread...
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August 20, 2013, 07:41 PM | #69 |
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Fishy
I am not paranoid. If I check the gun first, you can point it at me and fire. Any time you want. Once I verify it is not able to do anything to me, and I can observe that you do not load it, it cannot hurt me. Unless you bang my head with it like a club. I am not like the anti's where I believe that if there is a gun in the same city as me, that I am "in danger". Nor do I believe if a gun is pointed at me, with no one near it, that I am "in harm's way". Even if it is loaded. The gun will not fire itself. dc |
August 20, 2013, 08:51 PM | #70 |
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There is a training center in Ohio that is best described as regionally respected. From what I hear they are REALLY big on the circle the instructor and shoot him exercise. They have everyone pass the guns around the circle so every student and instructor in the group checks every gun. An instructor goes to the center of the circle and the students dry fire at him. They tout it as being the only way to break people aversion to shooting at people. I haven't been there, but I have heard it described as that more or less from two different sources. Most CCW instructors in the area who want an extra cert or two will go there. They take this drill back to their own classes with less experienced students and usually less experienced instructors.
I'm not sure the drill works as they claim. If I were in a more advanced class than I belong in I wouldn't mind running it. Something where everyone has fired a hundred thousand rounds and if they weren't super careful they would have killed themselves or someone else already. |
August 21, 2013, 09:33 AM | #71 |
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I'm not sure how pointing and pulling the trigger on a KNOWN empty gun gets people past their aversion to shooting other people with a KNOWN loaded gun.
Instead, it would seem to foster a more cavalier approach to handling firearms. |
August 21, 2013, 09:55 AM | #72 |
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I would think the intended goal would be better achieved via AirSoft or Simunitions Force on Force training.
Last edited by MLeake; August 21, 2013 at 10:25 AM. Reason: more iPhone spelling issues... |
August 21, 2013, 10:17 AM | #73 | |
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Quote:
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August 21, 2013, 11:15 PM | #74 |
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August 21, 2013, 11:33 PM | #75 |
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What was it Sheriff Andy used to say?
"Well, now, if that don't beat all." |
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