'Close Call With A Lion' Vid link

[Creature]

Unless they are hunting the lion for food, I see no reason to hunt a lion. If it is to "maintain their population", it seems to me that we are the ones who are encroaching on the lion's natural habitat. Nature has an uncanny way of being able to maintain a balance between predator and prey and controlling populations. Humans certainly dont need to step in to control the lion population, except to reduce their numbers so that we can safely encroach on their habitat.

[MrClean]

Holy Moly!! Ok.... I learned a few things.....

1) Don't go after a wounded Lion with your friends.
2) Don't be the closest person TO the lion when a charge is imminent.
3) IF you disregard lesson #1 & #2, take a fresh pair of Hanes and Shorts!

[Art Eatman]

Creature, ol' homo sap isn't noted for static levels of population. More people = more encroachment. Been that way for several thousand years, and won't change anytime soon.

Even if there are "no encroachment" zones, critters don't do well at mapreading...

[meathunter]

First of all, even though I would love to hunt the dark continent, I will never be able to afford to do so. So, I am defending something that I personally will never get to do. I have a friend who has and I am soooooo jealous of HER, you would not believe.

My .02 is, if the Lion population (according to each country) is at appropriate levels so that some may be hunted for trophies, knock yourself out. Clearly, Lions are not hunted for food, so that argument makes no sense whatsoever.

The major impact of real hunts in Africa is the money and food that is put into the local economy. PH's need trackers, porters, cooks etc for each hunt. They usually hire people from the local tribes = $$$. Some of the meat from the more tasty animals are served to the sports and the rest goes to the tribe = food.

That's why the ban on Ivory is just so much more liberal tree hugging BS. The elephant herds were managed and regulated while the poachers were kept at bay so legitimate hunters could take trophies. When the Ivory was banned and went to the black market, the poachers simply moved in, killed huge numbers of elephants, not to mention police and tribesman trying to protect the elephants from rampant slaughter.

[Socrates]

Africa:
Most corrupt place on the planet, this side of our Congress.

Have you looked at how much it costs to hunt lion, elephant, etc.? Last hunt I looked at was 20,000 dollars for 10 days. Then you add trophy fees, and, you can drop 25k-125k on your lion, etc. As long as people pay big bucks for lions, the property owners can afford to have their land fenced, the animals protected, and keep it as is.
I'm not talking about little canned hunt ranches, but 22,000 acre ranches, and bigger.
Once that incentive, and financial ability is gone to keep the land wild, and the animals, humans will come in, farm, and shoot everything that goes after their crops, which, in Africa, is just about every wild animal.

I have little doubt that in Zim, Mugabe has some huge hoard of elephant tusks he's told his soldiers to stock up.

Last hunt I was looking at was for an elephant culling hunt in Africa, Kruger park, IIRC. For 25 thousand, or more, you get to kill an elephant with 60 pound or less ivory. Not sure if you can take the ivory out as a trophy, though.

Also, while the herds don't number in the millions any more, it's pretty amazing how the existing reserves manage to breed a LOT of animals, who then leave the parks, because there isn't enough food, or, there are too many for the area.

It may seem really odd, but, hunting gives value to those majestic animals, who, otherwise, are considered horrible pests, and, destructive forces, that are to be shot on site.

Hunting: the only real hope for African animals...

[Creature]

Thats why I'm still rootin' for the lion, Art.

[guntotin_fool]

NOt just hunting, but any revenue based income that comes from keeping an animal alive as more value than it dead.

There are places where the animal counts are way down, but eco tourism and photo safari's have given the area's income, jobs, and a visible connection between conservation and wealth.

This has happened in other places even without the massive animals of the Africa wild. Look at Costa Rica, they discovered that tourism, and recreation would pay far more and for far longer than logging, and have tried hard to stem the logging that is devastating much of South America. Brazil needs to learn this, they want tourism, but they will not stop the expansion west up the amazon basin, and soon that river will not support the life people want from it.


As for the link, I agree with Lt dan, he knows these people and posts quite vividly that the PH and his man were willing to die to save their client. As for lion medicine, the three people I know personally who hunt Africa for Big Game have used a .340 weatherby, a .338 winmag double Custom Merkel, and the other an old but still useful .450/400 Westley Richards from about 1927.

They have all had success, the WR has had the longest life, as a missionaries gun, it was first used in India, in the Assam area, to kill man eating tigers, and then after India kicked the Missionaries out in the mid sixties, it moved to Ethiopia and had a long career there killing Lions and leopards which predated the local livestock, and kept a lot of kids from reaching school, because the threat of being eaten on the way to school was very real, (teacher, "did the dog eat your homework again?" student "no I have my homework, but the lion ate my little brother" ) I believe the current owners father was one of the few on earth who regularly killed maneaters solo. He had grown up hunting in Iowa and found the double was just like his old shotgun and he felt no pressure in just standing up and taking shots "on the wing" against both lion and tiger. His stories and old tape recordings made on a Wollensak reel to reel of tigers and lions Roaring in the night would make my skin crawl.

The man who uses the Weatherby .340 says that it has had dramatic one stop kills and a few where he emptied the gun. He uses A Square bullets exclusively. He is the owner of a very large construction corporation that manages the port facilities in several of the worlds largest ports.

The owner of the Merkel double is a former boss, who has hunted around the world, he owns a very large printing and mass mailing conglomerate that produces and distributes much of the direct mail that you receive. He had at one time, one of the largest collections of trophies in the world, until a fire in 2003 destroyed the new house that was to hold them all. When you see a full body mount giraffe in the same room as a full body Elephant you realize someone spent some Ching on taxidermy. He hunted extensively in Rhodesia before it was trashed by the current leadership. I believe he is in Mozambique right now. He used federal safari loads in his rifle, as he believed in buying several cases from the same lot and having the gun regulated to that loading. He also owned(s) matching '06 and 470 NE doubles from Merkel.

This man has spent probably a million of his own dollars in developing permanent watering holes in parts of africa, both for the population and for wild life. By doing so, they have been able to "contain" without fences, wildlife migrations keeping them away from villages and people, and keeping people out of the path of the animals, leading to fewer "accidents" and a higher tolerance of the people toward wild game.

[Socrates]

Great Post, GF.

I really enjoyed the part about the water holes. Nice to know someone was smart enough to figure that out, and, put it into action. Couple of spots have cameras that digitally broadcast water hole activity in Kruger, IIRC. GREAT stuff.

the three people I know personally who hunt Africa for Big Game have used a .340 weatherby, a .338 winmag double Custom Merkel, and the other an old but still useful .450/400 Westley Richards from about 1927.

I love Merkel doubles, but, the ones I shot were in 9.3 x 74R. Isn't that pretty close to the .338, but, with 286 grain bullets? My two friends that are going to Africa for plains game, soon, are both taking doubles, one a Merkel, the other a Chapuis, both in 9.3 x 74 R. They could take anything they want, but, that's what they shoot the best, and, they are very light rifles, easy to carry for long periods of time, and easy to shoot. I think they figure that the 9.3 can kill just about anything, and, they have the guys behind them with big guns, so just hit your target. Suspect that would also make a good bear gun, at close range.


Sounds like you have some neat folks to go hunting with...

[guntotin_fool]

9.3 is 366 cal. 74 R is very close to a 35 Whelen with modern loads, the only one I have is part of a drilling, Its a SXS 12 gauge with a 9.3 underneath. Its easily the best gun I own, even though mine is in what could be graciously called "well used" condition. Shooting the Speer 270 grainers, I have loaded it with H4350 to about 2450 fps. which is the starting load, but I am in no mood to push this old timer any harder. Hard to believe that at one time, guns of this quality were issued as survival guns.

I also have a 9.3 x 62 built on a Win 70 and a 9.3x 57 built on a persian mauser. I have no idea who did the work, but it struck a fancy with me. All of these guns were bought when I worked in the gun shop. The winchester was built on a push feed 70 that had suffered a roll over in an ATV. the stock was smashed and the barrel bent. With just an action, and not a terribly valuable one, it sat around for a couple of years. one deal that showed up was a couple of barrels bougth for a trip that never took place, one of which was the 9.3 x 62 barrel. a junker featherweight stock and a little work in the shop and I had a "big Game" rifle. To this date, it has only killed a couple of white tail, (my nephew used it as prep for his Elk Hunt) and a smaller but still very tasty 3x3 bull Elk in Idaho.

I have never killed with it, and most likely wont, as I tend to use lever guns, in particular my 99's or my 71 Winchester. I have a safe full of guns that will never hunt with me, simply because I am too tied to the ones I use for hunting, and for most things, i like using less power than most.

[Art Eatman]

Creature, would you move all the people out of an area where they've been in residence for generations, just because a lion moved in? It seems like you're unknowingly arguing that an animal has rights which are superior to a human's.

The food you eat would not be available to you except for encroachment. Do you believe that encroachment which occurred decades ago is alright, but any new encroachment is bad?

We could dis-encroach and bring back the buffalo, but that would reduce our supply of grains by some 95%.

But what the heck. They're only Africans, these people being denigrated for encroaching, so who really cares?

[Socrates]

Jack has a Spanish 9.3 x 62 for sale, but, I'm passing on it for now.

As I've said before, if I have to use a rifle, it's because something wants to eat me. That means, something that is going to stop most anything, but, be light enough to make sure I can carry it all the time, no scope. Probably same reason you like lever guns.
The 9.3 x 62 is on my list, but, I've also got a Interarms Mark X 30-06 I've had for 30 years, and, my CZ 550 Safari, that's up at Jacks, waiting for the reboring. It's a .375, but it's too darn heavy to justify a .375 H&H, when the 9.3 x 62 is just as effective, much less recoil, and, I'm not sure I'd call it a 'big game rifle', maybe medium game, but, can be big game.

Just between the two of us, if I can't kill it with a 30-06, I want something in another category, like a .458 win mag, on a short action, or, on my CZ, a 458 Lott, or, .475 Ackley. I like open sites, short range, and heavy recoil, provided I remember my PAST recoil pad...

I'm trying to get my rifles setup sort of like a set of golf clubs. On the otherhand, Saeed at accuratereloading.com told me just get the .375 H&H. His observation was it's the perfect balance of power, and recoil. His approach, either Barnes X bullets, 300 grains, or, his own, WalterHog 300 grain monometal bullets, at 2700 fps. His is a .404/.375, but, I could bore out the .375 to .375 Weatherby, and get near the same ballistics. That is really a one world rifle. I suppose it doesn't hurt that his brother was the Olympic Skeet champion, and, he taught him how to shoot, and, he's better...

What are your 99's and 71 Winchesters chambered, in, and, what do you usually hunt, and where?

[Socrates]

Art:

I think fewer people would be a REALLY good thing. Africa has never really been a place that is managed well, or at least not the places I've heard about.

At some point, stewardship of the planet is just that, and, it doesn't mean just stewardship of animals, but humans as well. Overpopulating humans are just as bad as locusts, if they, and they do, destroy the lands ability to give them life.

I for one, think giving up a few people for a world treasure might not be a bad idea. Chinese certainly agree with me...
I for one, think lions are a world, and African treasure, and, that they are worth giving lives to protect.

As for pulling the race card, that's pretty low. Still, other cultures place less value on human life then ours do. Creature is just agreeing with such staunch advocates of human rights as Mugabe, and a few other African butchers...

By the way, animals ARE move valuable then human life in Africa. When was the last time you saw someone pay 30k to dart any human in Africa, or, 125k to shoot one?