Function of the 1911 .45

[Ken Cook]

I'm starting a new thread to carry on a conversation with Jim Keenan that started in a Kimber thread and kind of wandered off topic.
I agree that a lot of "current wisdom" on the 1911 IS bs of the purest sort.
While I don't have the approx. 50 years you have, I do have a very sound 20 years, (Hey, I'm only 39, gimme time!) and in that time I've been very fortunate to work with some of the best in the field.
I found several instances in my Marine Corps time where we literally had to "re-invent the wheel" by discovering a problem and having to find a "new" fix for it only to find that this was something that had been "discovered" and dealt with 50 or 60 years previously.
One example that comes to mind was that we were experiancing a great many barrels failing due to a half moon shaped crack developing in the chamber at the 6 o'clock position.
Examination determined that this was, of course due to improperly fitted barrel links, causeing the link lug to literally begin to rip itself out of the bottom of the barrel.
Why hadn't we seen this before?
Because for many decades, Colt had used several different sizes of links and fit the correct lenth link in each pistol.
The military had decided that this was unnecessary and had chosen to stock only one "mid length" link that was supposed to fit ALL pistols.
Since we couldn't convince the US Military to not only stock all the lengths of link necessary to proper fit AND train the Armorers in how to fit them, we found a "mod" that the Marine Corps would accept.
(It didn't cost them any more money.)

I am in TOTAL agreement with you on how seldom a "smith" or a shooter truly understands what happens when you pull the trigger on a 1911, however, I believe that the way to insure BEST reliablity in a 1911 is to replicate the conditions of firing as closely as possible every single time you manipulate the slide.
For example,
The design of the 1911 is such that it is "for all practical purposes" impossible to fire the 1911 and take your finger off the trigger before the cycle of operation is finished.
Maybe Ed McGivern, Sgt. Joe Walsh, or maybe Bob Munden could put the lie to this, but I know I certainly can't and neither can any other "normal" human.
The reason this is significant is because while the trigger is depressed, the disconnector is activated, thereby taking the vital link out of the firing system and preventing the hammer and sear from bouncing together.
So, when I load the pistol, I (pointing the pistol in a SAFE direction!) I lock the slide to the rear, insert a loaded magazine, depress the trigger, and activate the slide lock, allowing spring pressure to take the slide home.
I then remove my finger from the trigger and "safe" the pistol.
Yes, to the untrained this CAN be a dangerous operation. All it takes is to unthinkingly release and reapply pressure to the trigger after it is loaded and you have an AD. (Accidental Discharge)
In Bullseye competition this is a VERY advantageous means of loading, as in the event of a poor hammer/sear engagement due to an overly light or improperly lightened trigger, it will prevent a "bounce out" AD.
As you mentioned in the other thread, the hammer is slammed about mercilessly during the cycle of operation. The reason this is not a problem is because of the disconnector.

Replicating firing conditions also extends as far as always loading from the magazine rather than dropping a loose round in the chamber and letting the slide slam home on it, causing the extractor to have to "jump" over the rim of the case.
As you touched on in the other thread, the 1911 is an EXTREMELY robust design and can withstand massive abuse and continue to function reliably, but just because it CAN doesn't mean that we should unnecessarilly do so.
Baby it in peace so that it will serve you well in "war."
Yes/no?
(sorry for the lengthy post, I can talk 1911 for days!)


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Your mind is your primary weapon.
USE IT!

[Nevada Fitch]

I was taught to load a 1911 the same way over twenty years ago.But I have quite doing it that way.I think it is a very dangerous habit.Shooting IDPA you have to run your gun dry and than reload and drop the slide because that is the way it will happen in a real life siduation if you shoot your gun dry.No one counts your rounds in a combat siduation according to the powers that be nowdays,and it makes sence.Jeff Cooper may not run his guns dry but most other people do.So Practice the way you will fight.Don't drop a slide on a empty chamber.But it is OK as long as you have a loaded clip in Place.Everyone does it this way in IDPA these days and those guys shoot a heck of a lot.

[Ken Cook]

Maybe it's just muscle memory for me, but I count rounds. I don't have to think about it, it's totally sub-consious.
Do I count rounds with my Glock?
HECK no! I lose count every single TIME!
But then, I don't carry the Glock for defense normally.
(I carry it when river canoeing, as I don't care if it gets dunked and stays wet for a day or two.)
Loading with your finger on the trigger is VERY dangerous if you don't follow all other safety rules and requires your full attention throughout the process, no matter how skilled or familiar you are with the process.
I don't recommend this method, I just wanted to use it to illustrate the concept of repeating the actual cycle of operations.

IDPA does a LOT of things that I don't consider tactically wise for "real world" shooting technique. (I don't mind disagreeing with the "experts", they're not going to be with me when I need to defend myself.)
One of which is shooting the gun dry.
Another is not allowing any weights in the strong side pocket to facilitate a faster draw.
I carry a spare loaded magazine in my right vest pocket for just that purpose, but have to take it out for IDPA comp.
Why? Is it not practical? Is it not "Sporting?" I thought IDPA was about defensive shooting skills and I'll take my "edge" where I can find it.
Well, I won't start a "rules bashing" discussion here, we can save that for another thread.



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Your mind is your primary weapon.
USE IT!

[John Lawson]

The 19ll pistols of the Korean war era were not prone to any half moon fractures in the chamber. Perhaps it was the fact that only steel cased ammo was being used, or perhaps it had something to do with the method of hardening the barrels. I know of many Series 70 pistols that completely sheared the underlugs of aftermarket barrels, and irt had nothing to do with length of the link.
As for not being able to remove your trigger finger fast enough during firing to drop the hammer to half cock, obviously you have never fired a Gold Cup or a target triggered pistol that some strange person has given a going over. Beleive me, friend, it happens a lot. I just worked over a top brand aftermarket pistol, that was worked over at the factory, that dropped the hammer to half cock to half cock at least once in every magazine load. And, another one that came in the other day that would not stay cocked when the slide was released via the slide lock. Never say never. Ah, well, give it another 30 years and you will have seen it all. If you REALLY want to know why, drop by my shop and I'll demonstrate.

[Ken Cook]

I guess I didn't make it clear that I was refering to a pistol that was in proper working order and functioning as J.Browning intended.



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Your mind is your primary weapon.
USE IT!

[James K]

Hi, Ken,

I am a little puzzled by your statement that "The reason this is significant is because while the trigger is depressed, the disconnector is activated, thereby taking the vital link out of the firing system and preventing the hammer and sear from bouncing together."

When the slide goes forward at any time, the full cock notch on the hammer drops on the sear. If the hammer notch or the sear is defective, the hammer may fall to half cock, but it definitely drops on the sear and, in firing, does so much more abruptly than possible in any manual operation. That is why "babying" the slide drop is silly.

But, in target pistols having a very light trigger pull, there is a condition that is poorly understood. When the slide is released (with or without ammunition to feed), it goes forward into battery and the barrel lugs slam hard into the slide stop pin, bringing things to a screeching halt and driving the whole gun forward.

But the internal parts of the gun tend to stay in place (good old Newton again). So we have a gun moving forward, and a loose trigger trying to stay in the same place. The result is that the trigger is moving back relative to the frame, and actually pulls itself if not pulled by the operator.

In a normal pistol, this is not enough to overcome the trigger spring and the resistance of a normal sear engagement. But when these are worked on ("tampered with" might be a better term), the trigger can impact enough to drop the hammer on the half-cock notch. This can damage a knife edge sear and is why the "super gunsmiths" say not to let the slide go because it will ruin their careful (and far too light) trigger adjustment.

It is also why target pistols have plastic triggers, and why replacing them with steel can cause a problem. The lighter the trigger, the less inertia it will have and the less likely it is to pull itself and drop the hammer in loading.

This problem does not occur in pistols with pinned triggers, like many European 1911 copies.

Jim

[Ken Cook]

Okay, let’s see if I can restate this a little plainer, I think I did screw it up.

In the cycle of operations, starting with the spent case freshly ejected, the slide all the way to the rear, the hammer and sear are not engaged, the hammer being pushed PAST point of engagement by the bottom of the slide
Covering FEEDING and CHAMBERING and LOCKING portions of the cycle of operation.
The slide begins to move forward, the hammer eases upward as the slide begins to strip the round from the magazine. The hammer engages the sear at the full cock notch. The trigger is still depressed, the disconnector is active, removing trigger from the “firing linkage”.
Correct so far?
The slide pushes the round out of the mag, up the feed ramp, and into the chamber.
The case rim begins to slip up under the extractor. The breech face contacts the face of the barrel hood and the barrel moves forward, pivoted upwards by the barrel link. The locking lugs enter the slide lugs and forward motion of the slide is checked by the barrel lug impacting against the slide stop pin at the same instant the locking lugs seat fully within the slide lugs and the extractor claw engages the case rim at the 3 o’clock position.
At this point, the shooter eases pressure on the trigger, allowing the “sear spring” to push the disconnector back to it’s full upward and de-activated position, with the tip extending out of the frame and into the detent cut in the base of the slide.
The pistol is now ready to FIRE.

So yes. The “vital link” being the trigger, the hammer AND sear are disconnected. Not from each other, (I apologize, I botched that in my earlier post) but from the trigger as you pointed out in your post.
I’m not sure I’m convinced that the “bounce out” A.D.s I’ve seen can be attributed to the inertia of the trigger. Granted, they were all Military .45s with steel triggers, but the speed required to drop even an improperly done 5lb minimum hammer/sear engagement (otherwise known as “trigger pull”) seems to be a LOT more than is present in forward slide movement alone.
You mention Newton, and “his” laws do play a part, but remember we’re talking about undissipated energy here. The energy caused by the forward motion of the slide doesn’t stop with the forward motion of the slide! It’s linearly transferred back the direction it came from when it no longer has anywhere to go. For lack of a better term, let’s call it reverberation.
When that energy travels BACK from the muzzle towards the rear of the pistol again, we are now dealing with the energy of not just the hammer and sear moving forward, but the entire weight of the pistol moving backwards.
It’s at this point that Newton’s laws work AGAINST us, as the “object at rest” is now the hammer and sear, and the “object in motion” is now the entire pistol.
I find it much easier to believe that this greater energy (unconsciously helped by the shooter’s muscle reflex and tension) could force the hammer and sear to disengage (given that the trigger is NOT depressed) than I can believe that the small weight of the trigger during the FORWARD motion of the pistol could cause the hammer to fall.


I dunno, what do you think? Do I have a point or am I fulla crap? (It’s possible the answer is both!)


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Your mind is your primary weapon.
USE IT!

[James K]

Ken, you have a point, but it is true that the trigger, by trying to remain "at rest" when the gun is moved forward abruptly by the barrel/slide stopping, does actually move back in relation to the gun. It would try to do this in any 1911 type, but in a normal pistol it would not have enough inertia to overcome its spring and the sear spring plus the sear engagement. In a pistol in which the spring tensions have been reduced and the sear engagement lessened, that rearward trigger movement (again, note, in relation to the gun's forward movement) is enough to drop the hammer. Since there is no muscle tension to keep the trigger held back, the sear spring reasserts itself and the sear catches the hammer in the half-cock notch (usually).

To preserve a fine sear engagement, some "gunsmiths" will actually grind off the half cock notch, and the gun will fire if the hammer drops for any reason. This is extremely dangerous, of course, but the demand for ever lighter trigger pulls drives such nonsense.

BTW, I have always felt that the term "disconnector" is a misnomer. It really should be called the "connector" because it provides the connection between the trigger bar and the sear. When the "connector" is disengaged, the sear is free to move driven by its spring and to hold the hammer.

Jim

[Ken Cook]

Hmmm..
Connector, disconnector.
Oh geez. Thanks LOADS! I'll be chasing my tail over this one for a WEEK! LOL
IF a customer was concerned about ruining his trigger pull if he accidentally dropped the hammer to half cock, I'd cut the half cock notch a little deeper. (wouldn't bother to do it unless they asked.)
Cutting the notch deeper means that in the event the hammer drops to half cock, the sear will be engaged on the front and rear faces rather than the "edge" of the sear. (Kind of like a wedge.) Doesn't affect reliability of the half cock or it's proper function and will save the sear if the shooter does something dumb (several times.)
REMOVING the half cock though? Only if you want to make rich lawyers "richer" and yourself much poorer.
I personally have no taste for living in a refrigerator box.


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Your mind is your primary weapon.
USE IT!

[James K]

Hi, Ken and guys,

The lawyers will get us all or we all will become lawyers.

Just some more info, for fun.

Part of the problem is that few people understand the dynamics of the 1911 in firing, as opposed to functioning in manual operation. I will try to cover what I have seen in high speed photos and learned from engineers. I know some of what I say will be contrary to what people think happens, but bear with me for the moment.

First, remember that steel is a very elastic material. If in doubt, study one of those little toys with 5 steel balls hung by threads. Draw back the end one and let go and the energy is transferred through the middle balls to the other end, and that ball jumps. Remember also Mr. Newton’s business about “every action has an equal and opposite reaction” and “a body at rest tends to remain at rest.”

Let’s take it from firing.

The cartridge fires and the gas pressure moves the bullet forward. As soon as the bullet moves, Newton’s “equal and opposite reaction” begins to move the barrel to the rear. The barrel is actually moving back while the bullet is still in the barrel. It moves about 1/8 inch before the bullet leaves the muzzle. The barrel is in contact with the slide, so the slide is driven to the rear so hard and fast that it continues on its own momentum even after the barrel drops away. Note that, unlike a blowback pistol, the gas pressure does not move the slide by pushing the case against it. The 1911 is recoil operated; if the barrel is blocked and the bullet cannot move, nothing happens, and the gas pressure gradually leaks away, making a sort of hissing noise. Don't believe it? Try it; I did.

The barrel is unlocked from the slide by the link, and it is stopped by its lower lug striking the frame in the slot. It is not stopped by the link; if the link is too short to let the barrel stop on the frame, the link will take excess strain and either break itself or crack the barrel feet. Ken reports even barrel cracks from this cause.

When the barrel motion drives the slide to the rear (not the slide dragging the barrel), it does so very hard and fast. At the rear of the slide, the slide impacts the hammer and slams it back so it loses contact with the slide. This is why, with a short grip safety tang and a long hammer spur, the hammer can hit the flesh of the hand even though it seems not to come back that far when the gun is operated manually. The hand is not “pinched”; it is struck a blow as if from a steel whip, and this can abrade the flesh and raise a welt.

The hammer bounces off the grip safety and back into contact with the slide, but by this time, the slide has moved further to the rear and the hammer strikes the bottom of the firing pin tunnel. This causes the denting often seen in this area. Note that the hammer was momentarily out of contact with the firing pin retainer. If the firing pin spring is weak, the firing pin, trying to remain “at rest”, moves forward out of the hole in the firing pin retainer. The slide is moving upward in recoil and the firing pin retainer is also trying to remain “at rest” so it is free to move downward out of its slot. If it does this while the hammer is out of contact with the slide, it will drop ahead of the hammer. This usually causes no problem as the hammer pushes it right back up, but it does happen. If the timing is such that the stop drops behind the hammer, it and the firing pin can come out and be lost. (This kind of timing difference is the result of ammunition loads, bullet velocity, and the holding or resting of the gun.)

Meanwhile at the front, the back of the recoil spring tunnel is driven hard into the recoil spring guide, which transfers the blow to the frame. The spring guide and frame store and return energy to the slide. This bounce causes the slide to move forward far faster and harder than if it were simply released by hand. The slide, in fact, moves forward so fast that the hammer is again left behind, wondering where the slide went. It then is driven forward and down by the mainspring*, until its full cock notch is caught by the sear. This is much harder on the sear than the usual illustrations of the slide “gently” lowering the hammer onto the sear would lead one to believe.

The slide then moves forward from the “bounce” and the stored energy in the recoil spring. When it reaches the right point, it hits the back of the barrel, pushing it forward and (due to the link) upward. The whole thing is brought to a screeching halt by the barrel foot impacting on the slide stop pin. By this time the “bounce” energy has pretty much dissipated and the slide is propelled only by the recoil spring. Some people use an extra strong recoil spring to cushion the impact of the rearward moving slide; but that spring then causes a greater impact when the forward moving barrel strikes the slide stop pin. Ultimately, the slide stop pin can batter, the hole become elongated, or the frame crack. You “don’t get nuttin’ for nuttin’”.

*This is also called the hammer spring, but in conventional firearms terminology, the spring that fires the gun is called the mainspring, even though it might not be the largest or most powerful spring in the gun.

HTH

Jim

[BigG]

Hey Ken,

Where I started to gag was when you said you pulled the trigger before you dropped the slide on a full mag. That is what Jeff Cooper would call a fix to a nonexistent problem.

Also, buy a Colt or a 1911A1 US Army, not a kitchen table special. Otherwise, good post.



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o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok

[Ken Cook]

Sorry to kick in that reflex for you Bill, and as much as I admire The Colonel and his writings, (warning! Heresy follows!)The Colonel isn't always right.
It cannot be argued that he is THE expert on defensive shooting, but I am not aware of any of his acheivements as a Gunsmith.
It's NOT a fix to a non-existant problem, it's a "fix" for a possible, though admittedly improbable one.

Colt hasn't turned out a good gun since the late 60's (IMHO etc) and the last US Military 1911A1 ever manufactured rolled out of the plant in 1945. (I'm looking for something a bit less "broke in.")
The one I'm building right now is on a Les Baer matched frame and slide. Set me back about 800 bucks for the frame and slide alone and those parts are THE finest workmanship I've ever seen.
Of course, you could say I'm a "kitchen table smith" and aside from being rude, you'd be mistaken.
(I'm not so well off that I can afford to screw up 800 dollars worth of parts.)


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Your mind is your primary weapon.
USE IT!

[BigG]

Hi Ken,

No slight intended. Anybody who knows me from this board knows I prefer the Colt to anything.

I was referring to Kimbers, Dalys, Sprgflds, and all the no-name clones as kitchen table specials. I would much rather have a 1945 1911A1 or a Colt GM (I know its heresy in some circles, but I like em!!) than the nicest Kimber out of the box. Norincos and Argentine Colts I've heard are also good.

Also, Jim Keenan has said before that the 1911 is a cottage industry, assembled from parts from all over creation. Then, Mr. kitchen table wonders what is wrong with the 1911? More 1911s have been hurt by casual gunsmithing than helped.

Indeed, the Guru, Jeff Cooper is not the last word on anything, but I do like his attitude toward bulls--- where he calls things a fix to a "nonexistant problem."

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o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok

[James K]

Hi, Big G,

As the mood takes me, I lodge a protest against even calling the late stuff "1911". As far as I am concerned, there was one real Model 1911 pistol, as made by the real Springfield Armory, and assorted government contractors for the U.S. Army and Navy. There was one real Model 1911A1 as made by government contractors for the U.S. Army.

Colt, as the prime contractor, made a Government Model identical to their contract pistol.

Everything else is a clone or a 1911-type pistol, often of dubious quality and questionable ancestry. That is why I wish people would refrain from saying "My 1911 failed", when they mean "My 1911 clone, made in Bangladesh, with some parts made in Sri Lanka from old Japanese Saki cans and others made in Singapore from surplus Chinese rice bowls, with magazines hammered out of tin by workers in Nigeria who are paid $.25 a day, failed".

Jim

[Ken Cook]

WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!!!!
I was sitting watching "ZULU" on the tube when it dawned on me just what you said here Jim.
I can't believe this didn't register on me at the time, but I've GOT to call you on this.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Keenan:

The 1911 is recoil operated; if the barrel is blocked and the bullet cannot move, nothing happens, and the gas pressure gradually leaks away, making a sort of hissing noise. Don't believe it? Try it; I did.
[/quote]

I really don't know how to approach this and not sound VERY rude, so please pardon my poor attempt.

You claim, that it the bullet is somehow prevented from ANY forward movement within the barrel, that the slide will not move at ALL and the pressure captured within the chamber will slowly leak out like a coke bottle with a faulty cap.
Jim, this has got to be the most preposterous thing I've ever heard in my life.
To simply say that your claim is impossible isn't enough.
I can disprove it with a pencil.
Place the eraser end of an unsharpened pencil down the bore of an unloaded 1911 pattern pistol.
Push back against the breech face.
What happened?
Yup!
The barrel dropped and unlocked, and the slide moved to the rear.
I'm not going to say anymore here, I'll just figure this is your lesson in what happens when posting after the 2nd six pack and offer you the chance to retract that statement.
I hope VERY desperately that you don't decide to ACTUALLY try this. Yes, the 1911 design is VERY robust, but it's not THAT robust. If you manage to perfectly prevent any forward movement, the very LEAST you'll be dealing with will be the entire energy of the fired round "dumping" down the throat, onto the feed ramp, explosively ejecting all rounds in the magazine, along with the shell follower, mag spring and floor plate.
If you're VERY fortunate, the pistol is wearing steel re-enforced Pachmyer grips rather than wood. If they're wood, you will suddenly find some very expensive splinters driven deeply into your firing hand, possibly severing fingers and doing some very nasty and permanent damage to that hand.
(Oh yeah, the slide WILL move very forcefully to the rear in the process.
Kids, I don't care if you ARE a trained professional DO NOT TRY THIS!



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Your mind is your primary weapon.
USE IT!

[BigG]

Hi Jim,

You know I agree with you 100% about the cavalier use of 1911. There is only the WWI piece and 1911A1 built by and for the govt, but the pretend Sprgfld Armory copyrighted the name! A brilliant (if shady) business move. I consider it false advertising and would not own one if I was given it.

However, we are in an age where people have little or no values but everything has a price. Kleenex is only one brand name but everybody that buys Walmart generic brand calls it Kleenex anyway. Just like PC was an IBM trademark now it refers to Samsung, and anything else that they produce overseas (like the sprgfld 1911A1 and Daly and others!)

I usually call my Colts GMs unless I lapse into newspeak, but we are a distinct minority, my friend! :&gt;

Regarding the recoil operation you described, I admit, like Ken, I drew a sharp intake of air when I heard barrel movement caused the slide to retract. Mebbe so, but smacking that case up against the breechface leaves striations. How do you splain that? If you push the slide back with a pencil as Ken says, it will drag the bbl back until it unlocks and proceed to the end of its travel. BTW, how did you block the bbl and ensure no bullet movement? Don't worry, I won't try it at home!

Regards

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o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok

[Ken Cook]

Hey BigG, Jim,

Well I personally call them 1911s reguardless of who makes them IF they are "parts interchangeable" with a standard military issue 1911A1.
Doesn't have to be 100 percent to me, I don't have any problem calling a doublestack from Para Ord or STI a "1911" because it's based on the Browning design and 1911 refers NOT to the manufacturer (Singer Sewing Machine made 1911A1s) but to the DESIGN
You can't simply call it a .45 auto.
What does THAT mean? There's a world of difference between a 1911 and a Ruge, a Beretta, a S&W or _______ (fill in the blank).
So you must have SOME means of designating what you're talking about.
I'd personally rather refer to them as a 1911 pattern (a sterile military designation) rather than a "Browning pattern" (for example)
Even the term "Browning Pattern" is too ambiguous. Browning designed LOADS of semi-auto pistols.
I don't have any problem with companies other than Colt making the pistols, and haven't owned a Colt .45 auto in 20 years.
(Don't care if I never own another one either.)
I don't consider them "clones." They're not "copies" any more than a COLT is a copy.
Remember, Colt didn't design the 1911, JMB did.
Colt just paid for the right to make them.
The rest didn't. Why? Because the design is for all intents and purposes 100 years OLD this year.
Put yourself in the seat of a Firearms manufacturer.
What are you going to do?
Voluntarilly donate 10 percent of each sale to the Browning estate as tribute?
I think not. I'm not ashamed to say I wouldn't. You're not legally, morally, or ethically bound to do so, so why should you?
The design is truly public domain, as it should be.
What do you call a civilian made semi-auto only M16?
An AR-15! Why? so people will know what you're TALKING about. The odds of owning a TRUE Armalite AR15 (not one of the recent jobs from Eagle Arms) are VERY slim and I'm VERY green with envy if you HAVE one, but we still call them AR15s.
They've been sold as "Sporters" "SporterA2"
EM15 EM15AK and all kinds of silly names that I don't bother to keep track of.
Why?
Because a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.


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Your mind is your primary weapon.
USE IT!

[James K]

Hi, Ken,

"Oh, ye of of little faith." I appreciate your concern for my safety and for not harming a good gun, but what I said is correct. The 1911 is a RECOIL operated pistol. If the barrel is blocked so the bullet cannot move, and the gun is fired, NOTHING happens.

When I post that I have done something, I have done it. In this case, I have not only done it, but done it a couple of dozen times or more, mostly to demonstrate to skeptics that it is true. I have a barrel that I blocked in a manner I will describe in an e-mail if you want, but not here.

All I do is put that barrel in a gun, load a round and pull the trigger. The effect is the same as dropping the hammer on a snap cap. There is no recoil, no motion of the slide, and no sound except sometimes a little hiss, more like a "pfft". There is usually a little odor of burned powder.

The cases usually extract normally (sometimes sticking a little), but I usually have to drill the bullet out as it expands and will often stick. I sometimes remove the extractor so it won't be harmed if a case sticks.

I even had one fellow put a breakage detector on the slide and frame because he didn't believe nothing moved. The detector showed no motion. (I forget the exact name, but they use these on shipments of fragile material to show any damage to the package without opening it.)

Anyway, that is what happens. You can try it if you want. There is no danger to either the shooter or the gun. But the barrel block cannot allow the bullet to move. If you block the barrel at the muzzle, you may burst the barrel.

Jim



[This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited November 11, 2000).]

[jason h]

I am no expert on the 1911 type pistol. But I have to agree with Jim somewhat on the slide not moving with out the bullet moving. I think though it has more to do with how fast the pressure drops. Since the bullet does not move the pressure in the case takes longer to drop off. This means that the case walls are going to be pushed into the side of the chamber too hard for too long, for the case to be able to move back. If however, you were to grease the chamber wall or something, so that the case would not be allowed to grip it, then the pressure should push the case back into the breech and unlock the barrel. After all, pulling back on the slide unlocks the barrel, does it not? So any rearward force on the slide should unlock the barrel also.

In actual normal operation though, it is the opposite reaction force from the bullet moving forward that unlocks the barrel.

[James K]

Hi, Jason,

The case sticking is irrelevant, since there is NO slide motion. When I mentioned the case sticking, I meant when I manually operated the slide after firing. In a RECOIL operated pistol in normal operation, the barrel moves and moves the slide because of the opposite reaction to the motion of the bullet, not because of the pressure in the chamber pushing against the breech face.

If any of you folks are in school or college, run this one by your local friendly physics teacher. It should be good for a class discussion (unless the teacher is anti-gun, in which case, you get an F-).

BTW, I did oil the chamber to prevent that sticking. The case came out easier when I pulled back the slide. It made no difference in firing with the blocked barrel.

Jim

[This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited November 12, 2000).]

[johnwill]

Well, while I don't agree with Jim on his contention that Kuhnhausen doesn't know how the 1911 operates, he's certainly correct on his contention that his experiment would yield the results he claims. One thing that I take issue with is the contention that there is no danger. Since the bullet is not allowed to move, it's difficult to know what pressures are generated in the chamber, and it's likely they're much greater than they would be in normal operation. I see a real risk of a case failure doing this experiment, so I'd recommend that the kids don't try this at home.

[James K]

Hi, Johnwill and guys,

I understand your caution, but in fact the cases show no signs of high pressure. Primers appear normal, no different from those fired normally. After all, in a recoil operated pistol, the pressure is contained until the bullet is out of the barrel. It is just that in normal firing, the pressure rises, peaks and then drops as the bullet moves. In the case of the blocked barrel, the pressure seems to leak out around the case. I don't have pressure testing equipment, but I doubt it actually goes much higher than in normal use.

Kuhnhausen's books are very good and probably the best on accurizing the 1911 type. But his drawings show the pistol still fully closed and locked with the bullet out of the barrel. If that were the case, the gun should not function. Actually, the barrel begins to recoil to the rear when the bullet begins to move forward, and the barrel has moved about 1/8-1/4 inch before bullet exit. It is that impulse that operates the pistol for its reloading cycle.

Jim

[BigG]

Dear Jim, Ken, and guys:

This is a great discussion and I for one want to thank you all for the enlightenment.

While it is hard to believe that the slide will not move unless the barrel moves, I am smart enough to know that I don't know everything and that lots of things work contrary to common sense.

It may be true that Kuhnhausen does not know the true function of a Colt 45 Auto. To tighten the bushing, fit the barrel lugs, and lighten the trigger pull does not necessarily mean the technician knows everything about the pistol.

That said, in the absence of high speed photography and other modern marvels, I wonder if JMB hisself knew for sure how his pistol really works? ;&gt;
Thank you for an enjoyable educational experience.

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o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok