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March 11, 2009, 12:27 PM | #1 |
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Proof Mark Explanations please
Can someone decipher a few of these stamps... or lead me to a linked site? Please?
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A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address |
March 11, 2009, 12:33 PM | #2 |
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BNP under crown= British Nitro Proof (smokeless powder proof)
.455":.760"= 455 Webley Revolver cartridge (chambering) 5 TONS= Pressure of the proofing Others are Inspector's marks and arsenal marks. I am sure we have some British proofmark experts on here that will probably chime in reasonably soon.
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March 11, 2009, 12:39 PM | #3 |
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Excellant beginning and I thank you Scorch. The Brits certainly did have fun with their stamping, eh?
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A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address |
March 11, 2009, 01:19 PM | #4 |
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I knew someone who bought a stamp that said awesome and left it on the counter. Their husband came home and stamped pretty much every piece of paper in sight multiple times. He had ADHD or some such. This reminded me of that.
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March 11, 2009, 01:36 PM | #5 | |
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Found this at least
http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...Proofmarks.pdf Quote:
I'll keep looking. ETA found some more info here (fascinating reading at 1st blush) http://www.scribd.com/doc/9986849/Fi...and-Ballistics scroll down to page 49ish or so where I find "Provisional proof, Definitive proof and Reproof, company proof, dating proofs, yada yada oh my god proofs". And it appears that the Mark VI might be "shaved"? (and that mine needs a good cleaning after looking at others photos). OK, carry on, my learning new stuff knows no bounds today, but if you can add info, please do.
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A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address Last edited by Baba Louie; March 11, 2009 at 01:58 PM. Reason: Beats adding new useless drive your post count upward |
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March 11, 2009, 02:55 PM | #6 |
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The ".455" proof means I am crazy jealous of your gun.
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March 12, 2009, 09:47 PM | #7 |
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I'll give it a try. The .760 is the chamber length (case length) in inches. The .455 is the caliber. The 5 tons is the cartridge mean working pressure (not the proof pressure). It works out to 13,200 psi (the standard .38 Special is 18,000 psi, the .45 ACP is (IIRC) 19,000 which is why those revolvers reworked for .45 ACP should not be fired. The BNP and crown is the Birmingham nitro proof, the commercial proof put on when the gun was sold out of government stores. (All those markings are considered part of the proof as they are required by the proof law.)
At the top, the GP is the London proof (Gunmakers company proof) applied at some time for reasons unknown. The crossed pennants are the military proof marking, applied when the gun was accepted by the British Army. The Broad Arrow on various parts is the British government property mark, equivalent to the "US Property" on American guns. The other crown and number is the British Army inspector's mark. The Mark VI is the (Government) Model number. Technically, the gun is the "Pistol, Revolver, No. 1, Mk VI." There are repetitions of the BNP on the cylinder and frame. The mark above the trigger is another military inspection and acceptance mark. The "ENGLAND" is a marking applied in the U.S. in compliance with the Pre-1968 law that required the gun be marked with the country of origin. (Goods other than guns still require a COO marking, but the requirement for guns was changed in 1968 to the present "import mark.") As to present caliber, the gun appears to still be in .455 Webley and not converted to use .45 ACP in half moon clips (see above regarding safety). Those guns in the original caliber are today worth considerably more than converted guns, but in the late 1950's U.S. importers had them converted since .455 Webley ammunition was nearly impossible to find. Jim |
March 12, 2009, 10:14 PM | #8 | |
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Quote:
WildlovethosegunsAlaska TM |
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March 13, 2009, 03:03 PM | #9 |
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Back of the cylinder you say? Hmmm. Does look a mite shiny bright compared to the balance of the cylinder doesn't it? Cylinder fore to aft measures out a tad less than 1-7/16".
Here's one "mooned" as it were. Methinks it were 'mericanized sometimes in its past. Well dang it anyway Still and all it is a wonder to behold knowing it hit the armoury in 1919.
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A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address |
March 13, 2009, 04:06 PM | #10 |
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Shaved
WildwhatabummerAlaska ™ |
March 14, 2009, 09:59 PM | #11 |
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Yep. An original cylinder measures 1.5", and the half moon clips fit, which they won't with an unmodified cylinder.
BTW, Baba Louie, read what I wrote earlier about not firing factory .45 ACP ammunition in that gun. The pressure is too high and I know of a couple that had the chambers blown out firing the auto pistol round. If you reload, cut the loads down BELOW the lowest listed in the manual for the .45 ACP. Those .45 ACP loads are intended to function the auto pistol and you don't need to worry about that. Jim |
March 14, 2009, 10:56 PM | #12 | ||
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Quote:
If my homework is correct, original loading pushed a 260 gr approx 650 fps. What a kitten of a load (but it worked I gather). Now if I could just find some original "Dum Dum" and/or "Manstoppers". Sounds better than "cookie cutters"... maybe. T'was suggested 200 gr SWC over what we'd nowadays consider a weak knee'd light load of Unique, but that'd best be discussed elsewhere on the board. But I do thank you all. Great group of "smarter than I are" members here (which unfortunately isn't very hard to do or be in my case). Still learning new things every day. In Barnes, Cartridges of the World I find this concerning the .455... Quote:
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A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address |
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March 15, 2009, 05:14 PM | #13 |
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Just FWIW, Webley also made an auto pistol in .455 Webley Auto caliber, a round on a par with the .45 ACP (Colt made some Government Model pistols in .455 Webley Auto during WWI). It was semi-rimmed, and would fire in the Mk VI and other .455 revolvers, so the British Army issued a warning NOT to fire the .455 Auto round in the Mk VI. Apparently they were aware of the weakness of the old revolver even in 1913.
Jim |
March 16, 2009, 08:31 AM | #14 | |
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As a matter of fact, here's what it took to get mine cycling reliably... |
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January 25, 2010, 03:11 PM | #15 |
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Webley Proof Marks
The Webley pistol you have has many duplicate prroff marks. This is because the barrel, frame and cylinder are all tested in the proofing procedure and require separate marking. BNP stands for Birmingham Nitro Prrof. The cartridge calibre (Brit spelling) and length are also marked on the barrel (not frame). The crown and CP device indicates that the parts have passed proof test. The cross, in fact depicting crossed halberds (great big axes), is a date stamp either numerically or alpha-numerically stamped. The broad arrow is a Brith War Department stamp which indicates that the weapon was government property. Other stamps appear duplicated because they were not clearly stamped initially.
This pistol was very popular during WWI. In the early years officers were expected to provide their own sidearms which were privately purchased. This quickly became impractical and pistols were ordered for issue by the government although officers could, and did arm themselves as they saw fit. |
January 25, 2010, 10:46 PM | #16 |
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Hi, Tamara,
Yes, the .45 ACP will work in the Webley Auto, but the bullet has to be seated deeper because while the .455 Auto has a longer case, it has a shorter OAL. Because the .455 Auto is semi-rimmed, the chamber in the Webley Auto barrel (and the .455 Colt barrel) has no shoulder, and a .45 ACP fires in the Webley Auto only because it is held by the extractor. .455 Webley Auto cartridges are in the collector category and run about $7-10 a round. (But you are right about the old guns; they are far too valuable today to take a chance and parts are made from unobtanium, especially that big V recoil spring.) Jim |
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