HK USP: Opinions?

[Joe Mama]

I range tested my two new USPs today, both are 9mm full size.

V3 Decock DA/SA, no safety: good balance, excellent trigger and accurate. SA is very light trigger. I did a double-tap accidently after the first DA shot.

V7 DA only: Jam session. First mag all ten either were total or partial eject failures.

Back to HK for repair on this one. I'm considering converting it to a V1 while it is visiting home.

[Rich Jone]

Joe Mama:

Perhaps you should use only (& I mean ONLY!!!) +P+ ammo on the v7 gun since the USP's are rated for it. This should eliminate any cycling problems!

Gosh, I just couldn't pass up on this opportunity to slam the USP. BTW, I have never had a multiple jammed mag on any of my (4) SIG's. I also have never heard of any cracked frames on SIG's (from NORMAL wear & tear).

[Joe Mama]

I must admit that this is the FIRST time I have encountered a MAJOR failure of any gun, hand or long, right out of the box. Taurus, Winchester, Remington, Marlin, Ruger, S&W, Berretta, BM, Colt: all worked first time out, as they should.

As much as I like the look, fit and feel of the USP, a $600.00 handgun should work first time, every time. My experience (see above) is a 50% catastrophic failure rate.

HK (USA) should test them 100%, not by sampling.

IMHO
Joe

[David Wright]

Rich, next thing you're going to tell us, is that a pilot never has any problems with the F-15 because you folks do your job so well....

[Greg Bell]

Guys,

I have owned 2 usps. My 9MM FS was one of the earliest ones made. It functioned 100% flawlessly. This gun was tough. One time it was thrown up against a brick wall (hard) by one of my friend's idiot mother. Not only did it not break or fire, it functioned flawlessley when I took it out to shoot a few days later. I don't think the USP is perfect--but it is certainly a tougher gun than the sig. I have owned only one SIG, a 228. This gun started falling apart after just a few rounds. A little pin started working its way out of the guns side. I have found out this is a common problem in the early 220 series. Is this the quality one would expect in a $600 gun? However, in the gun's defense, it never malfunctioned (except on some of my early reloads that I can proudly say were capable of jamming any gun).

Get a P7m8!

[Rich Jone]

Dave Wright:
Most fighter jocks rather have the F15 to practically any other weapons systems platform in the U.S. arsenal (especially what we call the LAWN DART here in St. Louis, AKA the F-16). Minor design shortcomings such as the fact that it is a BIG plane cannot override the most important fact about the F15, which is that there has NEVER been a single F15 lost in battle. Also, I wouldn't hesitate to say that all fighter jocks would rather go into battle with two turbines strap to their ass instead of one, such as on the LAWN DART. It is unfortunate to see the Greeks & the Israelis select the LAWN DART in the latest fighter competition, but if one looks at who makes those decisions, it usually are those that have never gone into battle before (the number crunchers).

Greg Bell:
Now back to the argument. I am aware of the roll pin that occasionally works itself out on the slide. This roll (retainer) pin retains the breech block in the slide. A friend of mine in Hotlanta had this condition & the simple use of a brass punch & hammer resolves the problem. He also called SIG & they mailed him a free replacement roll pin immediately & he never had the problem again. Most of the threads that I've read which dealt with owners of H&K's who had dealings with the factory are unimpressive. A manufacturer of any firearm should have excellent support team at the factory. I can attest that SIG's have excellent support from the factory in Exeter, NH. BTW, I have never had the roll pin retention problem on my (2) 229s, (1) 220, or (1) 226. Yes, the H&K USP is an acceptable handgun, but it does not have the beauty of a SIG even though it can injest +P+ rounds regularly. Sort of like comparing the Impala SS (big & blocky) to the Viper GTS coupe (beautiful curved body lines).

[Greg Bell]

I personally don't see the relevance of a gun's appearance (in itself). I, of course, have my opinions but don't use them in judging a gun's true worth.

You might hope that Sig would spend a little more on delivering a quality product and a little less on nice service and ads. I have a quantex computer. A piece of crap. However, the service has been excellent. They have replaced the hard-drive, monitor, video card, modem and finally the whole computer (which still has modem problems). I would have rather bought a computer that was reliable. If they would just give me a decent computer I'll let em' talk about my momma!

Sigs are pretty nice guns. USPs are homely great guns. P7M8s are perfect guns (if you ignore the stupid finish, 900 degree temp after 100 shots, and the little scratch on the damn squeeze cocker!!!)


alveeterzane

[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited August 29, 1999).]

[David Wright]

Rich, I guess all those years I worked with those "fighter jocks" from Dayton(!), when they voiced their opinion regarding the F-15, they hadn't talked to you first, but that was almost 17 years ago, perhaps before your time...

However, I will say that the F-15 driver that landed some time back with his starboard wing shot off all the way up to the engine nacell was impressive. How much credit goes to the plane or to the pilot? I would have payed real $$ to see him land it though. F-15 drivers are plenty (!) busy enough flying when everything is working o.k., but add trying to land with a wing missing. Right?
Unfortunately, I didn't have the clearance to find out what or who shot at him.

Weren't you cheating a wee bit when you said an F-15 has never been lost in battle? Hmmmmm...... I'll let you off the hook on those three, um, uh, that one. I know, I know. This is not the time or place, and you and I don't know each other.

Back to the gun stuff. I won't get into it with Greg since he's where I was years ago with the H&K mystique. I won't disturb his reverie. He should enjoy it while it lasts.
A P7 in every glovebox! That's the ticket!
Greg, since I now live in Texas, I was considering putting the PSG-1 in the rear window of the 'ole pickup truck. Hoo Ya! Kinda down home, but with high tech teutonic sex appeal. Ha!

The Sig will get the job done, as will many products. Also, having been in an engineering field, I understand the "engineer's woody" or love affair with certain designs all too well. In this thread, all we need now is a Beretta fanatic and a 1911 fanatic to complete the madness. Kinda like a "McLaughlin Report" type show with guns.

FWIW, the gun is, to use an overused, but accurate cliche, a tool in a tool box. We can collect them, enjoy them for impractical or
practical reasons, love on them (Greg), and give them pet names.(Greg)

If we are choosing it because it is a serious tool for a deadly serious job, any considerations regarding the opinion of how much money one presumes to know was spent on developing a gun, the sexy engineering features, or it looks neat in the moooovies has no meaning. I guess that corporal on the C-5 was right about the great coffee that comes out of that $400($600?) coffee pot aft of the cockpit because it costs so much. Hmmmmmmm...

As nice as a BMW 700 series is, I'm not going to choose to drive one based on the argument that they spent well over a billion dollars developing it, and it's got great engineering sex appeal. Right?

All I'm suggesting is that besides all this pleasant banter about who makes the best pistol in the world (are you guys trying to put those poor gunwriters out of business?) for defensive purposes, the important factor is how well do you REALLY, perform with it under stressed-out combat conditions.

I will say it again. How many times have I seen a student show up with an average gun, that spent a lot of time and some $$ getting acquainted with their weapon, blow away the "talkers with the toys"? More times than I can recall.

The last one I saw, had an unmodified Colt 1911 shooting generic 230 gr. FMJs. He embarrased everybody! Yes, even the Sig, Beretta, Glock and H&K folk. Who would you want to be in this setting? Hmmmmmm....

It humbles me every time I see it.

[Rich Jone]

Dave:
I'm glad that you brought up the subject of the F15 that you seen a photo of a majority of it's left wing missing. I've got a photo of the F15 which came back with only a half a wing. It was an Isaeli F15 involved in a mid-air collision with an A6 over the Negav Desert back in the mid to late 80's (approximately). It was a inside joke in MDC at the time that the F15 was so good that "it can fly with one wing". The name of the pilot was classified at the time. BTW, he used up the entire runway since he came down so HOT. The arresting hook saved his butt at the end of the runway. This info was not available to the general public at the time.

At the end of the Gulf War, McDonnell Douglas (now bought out by Boeing) printed full page ads in Aviation Week magazine indicating that NO F15 has ever been shot down by any opponent aircraft in battle.
That statement still stands. I cannot however say that no F15s have crashed. Most recently (3rd week of August 99), there was a mid-air collision during training of (2) F15A models down by Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri during a training mission. There have been numerous mid-airs of fighter aircraft (during training missions) in the past & this information is not normally available for public disclosure.

Back to guns though. When I in Savannah, GA, in 1994, I was just getting into guns & witnessed a similar incident at a Pepper Popper shooting contest at a range. The winner was using a basic 1911 (series 70) in a competition in which there were several exotic looking raceguns. It wasn't a pretty sight to see those guys with $3k guns get blown away by the guy with a basic 1911.

In conclusion, both the SIG & H&K are good guns. There will always be isolated incidents where (1) gun from a batch will not performed up to the desired standards of the manufacturer. There are tolerances which are occasionally deviated during the machining & assembly process (perhaps due to a dull cutter or a worn reamer). Sometimes, that results in a gun which is slightly looser/tighter than desired when it leaves that factory. When the owner of this gun uses it & determines that a problem exists, he or she should send it back for repair. That is the reason manufacturers offers a warranty with a product.

[DeadCalm]

Greg Bell,

Maybe I'm the only one who cares, but why in the world did your friend's mother throw a pistol against a brick wall?

Is she an employee of Consumer's Union?

[Greg Bell]

David,

You are hurting my feelings now--me and Mrs. Amy (my p7m8!!!). ... ...


[David, I know that you have a sense of humor. But, just in case anyone from Mars read the above text--I am kidding...well, sort of. Of course my gun has a name, and it does have feelings...but none for David! ]

Deadcalm,

I sold my USP to my buddy (for a few years). When he was moving out, he and his mother got in a fight (the reason he was leaving in the fist place) and she started throwing his stuff out the door. Being the Mensa material she is, she also threw his USP, which slamed up against the house, a brick house!!

Moral: be nice to your mama!


Rich,

Yes, thats why Hk offers a lifetime warranty!


[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited August 30, 1999).]

[David Wright]

Rich, the one I saw was the right wing, and it looked like it was chewed up by something that was very large caliber. It reminded me of 20 mm cannon damage I've seen. Does that ring a bell?

[Rich Jone]

David:
You will need AT LEAST a "SECRET" clearance & this information is disclosed only for those with a "NTK" (NEED-TO-KNOW) basis. Sorry!

[David Wright]

Rich, sorry for the late reply.

Now that I'm retired at 41, I'm busier than ever. Go figure.

I know the drill. I just wanted to confirm we weren't talking about the same picture.

Thanx