Liability for reloads?

[Magnum Mike]

I see lots of postings about not using reloads because of liability for self defense. I'm guessing it must be a Kalifrowna or NY law. In Minnesota, law states when you may use deadly force but doe not say you cant use reloads. I even qualified for my CCW with reloads. I know it's illegal to use reloads in a school, Federal building, our Court House, or drunk in a public place here. Did I miss something in the term of use of DEADLY FORCE? Are my reloads not deadly enough for the use of DEADLY FORCE or what? I just want proof that it is true, is all! I mean laws here state what can and can not be driven or parked where. Heck even where you can and cant take a leak but nothing about not using reloads. I'm just asking for a tiny bit of proof from the people who say not to use reloads for SD because of liability issues is all! Thanks in advance!

[Sevens]

Yeah, you did miss something, at least here in internet world.
This is one of the single biggest cans of worms in all of gun discussion forum-dom.

If you run a search you'll be overblown by more spewed passion that you will ever have the time or energy to read. And some how, some way, this topic turns normal people in to cannibals.

Proceed at your own risk.

[dlb435]

This issue has been talked to death. What it comes down to is this:
If you shoot someone in self defense they may claim in court that you made a special "killer" round. Now they want to be compensated for the damge they suffered. (makes no differance that he had a gun and was trying to rob you)
Just buy factory self defense ammo and let the ammo company deal with it.

[KySilverado]

I still stand by the "use factory ammo" in your carry or self defense weapon.

When it comes to lawyers anything is possible. Why risk a "spin" they could put upon the super evil man killing load you concocted to strike down your poor attacker when perfectly performing factory loads are available?

About halfway through this thread Mas Ayoob speaks on the subject.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/view...73356&start=45

[steve4102]

Mike, you just opened up a huge can of worms.

You are correct, there is no law stating that you cannot use handloaded ammo for self defence. That said, there is a lot of speculation as to what a prosecutor might have to say about your choice pf ammo. Things like, "handloaded ammo? Wasn't the off the shelf factory ammo deadly enough for you, you had to make a special high powered super duper man killer bullet" Of course this is only speculation.

On the same note we can speculate on your choice of weapon as well. It could go something like this, "So Mike, how many handguns do you own? That many? Please tell the court Mike why you chose to carry a 45 caliber handgun and not one of the less deadly and lethal calibers, maybe one of your many 9mm's? Ladies and gentlemen of the Jury, this is a 45 caliber bullet, one of the largest and most deadly calibers on the planet. It is so deadly that the FBI, and LEO don't even carry such a bullet. No, they use smaller guns like the 9mm, of course they are not out to "KILL" instantly as Mike was".

Carry what you want and feel comfortable with. I do.

[Clark]

Sevens:
This is one of the single biggest cans of worms in all of gun discussion forum-dom.

I would put it up there with:
Ford vs Chevy
9mm vs 45acp
"Discrepancies in the Marshall & Sanow 'Data Base'

When Rush Limbaugh made a parody of a left wing Air America disc jockey with so few listeners that there were no callers, the voice acting as the liberal DJ asks the listeners, "Is there anyone out there with an opinion on gun control or abortion?"

What does it all mean?
The template for good discussion is to find a topic that people care about, but about which they do not already have stubborn opinions.

[TXGunNut]

If I could truly have a "jury of my peers" then I wouldn't mind letting 12 gun-toting reloaders decide my fate if I was forced to save my life or someone elses using reloaded ammo.
Reality is when attorneys and today's juries are involved factory ammo will have to do. Do you really think the attorney suing you would let me on your jury?
Poor horse is long dead but sometimes we find new ways to beat it.

[jmorris]

I have in the past carried reloads as that was just what was in them at the time but probably wouldn’t suggest it. I don’t think that any problems would arise criminally. However, it could be used as ammunition (sorry for the pun) against you in a civil trial. As above, “Normal ammunition was not deadly enough for him!”

[Magnum Mike]

A lawyer would try to say his client's ankle was hurt for life because of your mini-poodle bit him. You should of had a German Shepard that bit him in the Arse instead of the ankle. A lawyer would also try to use your store bought buckshot or HYdro shock against you also!
Still want to see proof of all the justified shootings and years of reloading that reloads affected the outcome of a case.
I am sure I can find more cases where store bought man killing ammo was used against someone than reloads!

[Sarge]

I don't worry about it. Others disagree.

A recent iteration of this topic is available here.

[Jim243]

Am I less liable, if I hit a BG with a chair made of pine than one made of walnut??? Or how about a wooden base ball bat VS a metal one???

[Sarge]

Only if the pine chair is factory-made, Jim

[Brandy]

why bother to use reloads when there is so much excellent factory self defense ammo available? A prudent man/woman would use the same caliber and ammo used by local police OR the state police OR the FBI. Would be difficult to spin that into "evil intent" especially if the perp was not available to be a sympathetic victim. Apply the rule to your primary CC or backup and you should be okay UNLESS you live in one of the "criminals republics" states or DC.

[Jim243]

Thanks Sarge, I got a kick out of that. (LOL,LOL,LOL)

[TXGunNut]

Jim, if you use a wooden bat and it breaks you may endanger an innocent bystander or stab the bad guy with something resembling a large knife. By all means use the aluminum one to reduce your exposure.

[Jim243]

Thanks TX, I hadn't thought about that and your right I can get more fps from the aluminum one.

[Magnum Mike]

So what people are saying is reload so you can get really good at shooting, so you wont waste the SPECIAL high dollar FACTORY MAN KILLERS! Gosh I see now! How could I've have missed that?

[SwampYankee]

Still want to see proof of all the justified shootings and years of reloading that reloads affected the outcome of a case.

Didn't you read the link that was provided above? Half-way down the page Ayoob states:

For the party who wanted to hear about it from "a real, live lawyer," they are free to contact Attorney John Lanza and Attorney Elisabeth Smith. Both of these "real, live (and very skilled) lawyers" defended him in his multiple trials. Both told me that if the gun had been loaded with factory ammunition, they were convinced the case never would have come to trial. (Began as a murder charge, ended with a manslaughter conviction and a bankrupt defendant.)

It seems pretty straightforward to me: If you carry a concealed weapon for defense, use factory self-defense ammo. Why is that such a hard thing to figure out? If you want to knock someone's head clear off their shoulders, use Buffalo Bore FACTORY ammo.

[Magnum Mike]

Didn't you read the link that was provided above? Half-way down the page Ayoob states:

swamp yankee
I did and from what gathered it was a SUICIDE not a justified shooting!
Quote from him in the same thread!

I compliment him for recognizing that it was indeed a suicide, because in other such debates, I've seen folks who want to win an argument throw poor Bias under the bus and claim, "Aw, he murdered his wife anyway." There was no motive, no violent history, and no evidence except the gunshot residue testing, which the state did with hot +P ammo because Bias' light handloads were in +P casing

It seems pretty straightforward to me:

Yes dont use light reloads to make a murder look like a suicide.

If you want to knock someone's head clear off their shoulders, use Buffalo Bore FACTORY ammo.

I dont want to knock someones head off I dont even want to have to use a gun in sellf defense.

[SwampYankee]

Does it really matter that it was a suicide? It addresses your original question, "Liability for reloads?". If Bias had put factory ammo in his gun, he would not have been found liable for his wife's suicide.

You do what you want. It just seems foolish to be taking a chance, even the smallest and most unlikely, when there is the potential that you will end up in a court room for your actions.

They say that CCW permit holders are smarter and safer than your regular citizen. They carry a gun and should know how dangerous it is to use. They keep themselves out of trouble so they don't have to use the gun. They cross the street when crossing the street is the smartest and safest course of action, they don't provoke action out of others. It seems to me that carrying factory ammo is the smartest thing to do when it comes to picking a SD ammo.

[SwampYankee]

I dont want to knock someones head off I dont even want to have to use a gun in sellf defense.

I assume what you mean to say is, "If I can't knock someone's head off, then I don't want to use that gun in self defense". Correct me if I am wrong in deciphering your intent. My response to you would be, "Shot placement is critical". You can go around carrying a 454 Casull but if you can't hit the side of a barn with it, you won't be knocking anyones head off anytime soon.

And as a passing remark, being innocent is not the same as being acquitted.

[Magnum Mike]

You are correct I forgot the word justified. But did say in self defense NOT murder or suicide!

My response to you would be, "Shot placement is critical"

I could not agree more with you there. That is the exact reason I carry reloads. Better than factory for me and wont hit something not intended to. I do my best to avoid all conflict all the time carrying or not.

I assume what you mean to say is, "If I can't knock someone's head off, then I don't want to use that gun in self defense". Correct me if I am wrong in deciphering your intent

You are wrong and are trying to mix things up! I DONT WANT TO

[ScottRiqui]

Does it really matter that it was a suicide? It addresses your original question, "Liability for reloads?". If Bias had put factory ammo in his gun, he would not have been found liable for his wife's suicide.

The problem in that case wasn't the fact that the rounds were reloads per se, it was the fact that they were such light loads that they didn't leave sufficient residue on the wife's hands to support the defense's theory that her death was a suicide.

Had they been full-strength reloads and left the expected amount of residue on her hands, the defense probably would have been successful. Likewise, if they had been special-purpose mousefart factory rounds rather than reloads, he would have likely had the same difficulties in his defense from lack of residue.

Personally, I stick with factory loads in my carry gun just to remove the chance of reloads coming up at trial, but my thinking from a legal standpoint is that if a shooting is justified with a .22, it would have been justified with a .454, so the difference between a factory 9mm and a hot reload 9mm shouldn't be an issue. (But "shouldn't" doesn't always work out in front of a jury.)

[jmortimer]

First off I am a fan Ayoob - second, there have never ever been a case where a justified shooting with a reload ended up convicting a person. That is a fact beyond dispute. The cases relied on by Ayoob stand for the proposition that forsensic expert witness testimony is best facilitated by use of factory ammunition. If you reload and keep good records you would be in better shape than if you don't have records. The cases relied on by Ayoob also stand for the proposition that anyone who reloads could end up just like the alleged killer in the "suicide" case (My opinion is that the guy did it -allegedly) and that anyone who reloads could be in trouble if they merely reload as accidents do happen. Ayoob makes a better case for never reloading at all as, again, accidents do happen and if your reload is involved you could get whacked in the legal sense. I use Buffalo Bore for my self-defense loads and reload to as close as possible to the Buffalo Bore Specs for practice to save (lots of) $$$. I use hardcast bullets with large meplats. Rarely do people consider the civil aspects of the case where I would rather represent someone reloading a hadcast bullet over someone using Glasser or Magsafe or any premium hollow point factory ammunition that is advertised as having devestating terminal effect on living tissue. In civil court you pay for damages and future medical care is where the rubber meets the road. As for criminal, I would again rather represent a careful reloader who used hardcast ammunition and kept good records than represent someone shooting "uber killer" factory ammunition that rips people apart. I have represented people in civil and criminal firearms cases and that is my opinion.

[TXGunNut]

I'm not an Ayoob fan but after a justified shooting plan A is avoiding court altogether! I realize an attorney may see it differently but in court even a win can have devastating costs. Using reloaded ammo is just offering another straw for an opposing attorney to grasp.