|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
November 29, 2012, 06:46 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 6, 2011
Location: DFW, Texas
Posts: 876
|
I put a 3.5 lb disconnect and Wolff spring on all 4 of my Glocks. I can't see that they are less safe and I shoot better with them. I'm not worried about legal issues.
|
November 29, 2012, 07:37 PM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
|
"Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of a court case involving a justified self defense shooting that was changed due to the gun being modified?"
No. The question has been asked over and over since I got on line back in the last century and the answer appears to be no. |
November 29, 2012, 08:15 PM | #28 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 27, 1998
Posts: 157
|
Quote:
Lightening the trigger to increase accuracy to hit the intended target is fine. Because the intended victim should be able to show that he is proficient, through training, with the firearm at the trigger weight he/she selected. |
|
November 29, 2012, 10:43 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
As nice as the trigger pull is on my Glock, It is NOWHERE near the trigger pull on my Kimber 1911.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
November 29, 2012, 11:45 PM | #30 |
Member
Join Date: September 10, 2009
Location: Surprise, AZ
Posts: 42
|
I have ghost triggers on my glocks. A lighter trigger does not affect the safety of the weapon. The trigger won't pull itself
|
November 30, 2012, 12:07 PM | #31 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 939
|
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...nse-case-pt-1/ tl;dr Quote:
The Florida vs. Luis Alvarez case is next. There's a discussion on an archive of these forums from about 10 years ago that mentions it and has a decent overview of it. I haven't read Black's Law, but I think I might now. http://thefiringline.com/forums/arch...?t-114917.html Lastly, the Harold Fish case. This is one I've actually looked into. Massad is correct when he says something irrelevant was turned into a conviction. Why? Because the prosecution was successful in arguing to the jury that 10mm JHP ammunition was excessive and that only someone who was a bloodthirsty killer would use that (that is how Mr. Fish was portrayed by the prosecution, even though the evidence didn't support it.) Mr. Fish spent 3 years in prison for 2nd Degree Murder until he won an appeal that allowed him to be free. He actually passed away last month, 3 years since he was released. Ammo shouldn't be an issue (except reloads, of course) in a defense case. However, in this case it was. A light trigger, or removed magazine safety, or laser engraved "Smile before Flash" shouldn't be an issue either. But you are inviting trouble if you do these things to your carry weapon. In Florida vs Alvarez, he was aquitted. But according to the attorney, it could have gone either way. In the Harold Fish case (I'd recommend reading it, it's very interesting), something that shouldn't have been a factor, was a factor, and he was convicted, it cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars, and he lost 3 years of his life to prison. He was eventually found not guilty, and released, but is it worth it to you to go through what he did? Bottom line, modify your gun at your own risk. Chances are, you won't be in a self defense shooting, so it won't matter. But, what if you are? Do you want yet another legal hurdle to have to jump in order to get aquitted? Personally, I'd want the easiest time possible. It's proven time and time again, you don't need a super clean 2# trigger to get good groups. Hell, I remember seeing something somewhere (maybe in one of his books) where Mas Ayoob shot a perfect IDPA classifier (no points down) with a heavy double action revolver. So that super light, crisp trigger just isn't needed. I for one don't want to give the other side of my potential criminal/civil trial ANY ammunition. I'll just practice and make up for not have that super trigger. |
|||
November 30, 2012, 12:33 PM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 1, 2008
Location: MN
Posts: 559
|
Well out of the dozen or so hand guns I own including revolvers only one has not had some type of action work and thats my Kimber UCII.
So I guess I'll have to take my chances,as Im not willing to undo whats been done. |
November 30, 2012, 01:02 PM | #33 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
|
10-12 lbs would be safe.
Thats what a DA revolver was and the same for the DA/SA semi autos. glock changed it based on nothing other than a gun for military purposes that they then marketed to the civilian market. That put the gun out of the hands of people who actually are trained to use them into hands of people that can have no training whatsoever (and the military always carries them in a holster). Otherwise you should have a manual safety like the MP offers. |
November 30, 2012, 04:48 PM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 22, 2004
Posts: 2,018
|
Honestly guys.. is there really any real reason to change the trigger on a dedicated ccw Glock?
Is is really going to improve your chances of survival... no, probably not. Is a modified trigger going to become a topic of conversation by the DA... you bet. Will it matter in the end? No... not if the court isnt the kangaroo variety and your shot was justified in the first place and you have a decent lawyer who can beat back such nonsense. |
November 30, 2012, 06:07 PM | #35 |
Member
Join Date: April 23, 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 76
|
I use a polished 3.5 lb connector on my G-26. I like the trigger pull better than stock and believe I'm more accurate with it as well.
|
November 30, 2012, 06:21 PM | #36 |
Junior member
Join Date: July 24, 2011
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri
Posts: 849
|
"Honestly guys.. is there really any real reason to change the trigger on a dedicated ccw Glock?"
NO, absolutely not. To do so is nothing but utter foolishness and fool-hardyiness. If you want to treat your Glock like a hobby/plaything, tinker to your heart's content. If you want to use it as a weapon, to defend your life, stop frackin' around with it and practice, practice, practice with it. |
November 30, 2012, 06:44 PM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 12, 2012
Location: Richmond, Va.
Posts: 353
|
The argument should be that a person who practices a lot and is helped by the lighter trigger pull does so in the hope that if a dangerous situation developes, the improved accuracy 'may' give him him a chance at a non-lethal shot.
Not that it will go down that way, but who knows, maybe he'll get a chance to shoot the weapon out of the BG's hand. Just saying.
__________________
Frank-- Member, GoA, NRA-ILA, SAF, NRA Life Member |
November 30, 2012, 07:01 PM | #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 12, 2012
Location: Richmond, Va.
Posts: 353
|
Oh, to answer the original question, mine are about 3.5#. Why? Because all my pistols have been that or lighter since I was a child. I have a S&W 63 that has about a 5# DA and maybe 2# single. All my revolvers are about the same except for a new Taurus 941. I'm still trying to make that shootable too.
It makes for zero transitioning between play and carry pistols since all are fairly consistent.
__________________
Frank-- Member, GoA, NRA-ILA, SAF, NRA Life Member |
December 1, 2012, 08:38 AM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 22, 2004
Posts: 2,018
|
If your far enough away that the accuracy advantage of a lighter trigger makes a difference then the shot may not be warranted or legitimate.
There are obvious exceptions of course, but you get the point... pinpoint accuracy and SD shooting dont really go together, so why bother with the trigger and all the other potential pit-falls? |
December 1, 2012, 09:14 AM | #40 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 31, 2011
Posts: 180
|
your not going to get to 3.5 kbs unless you do all the springs and the connector at the same time. in my option adding a lighter firing pin spring can cause misfires
just for the record I added a connector and spring and it made a little difference if it’s a legal shooting it will never see court Last edited by barstoolguru; December 1, 2012 at 01:45 PM. |
December 1, 2012, 09:34 AM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 6,328
|
Lot's of interesting conjecture. It seems Mr. Ayoob's advice is to come up with a story that can be told and live it.
My story might be that I am a normal guy raised in a rural state, always shot guns, bought all my guns as range guns, load most of my ammo and generally shoot monthly for fun. I got my CCW to make it possible to carry a gun if I need to. I carry one of the few range guns I shoot regularly because I know I'm safe with it. I have proven my ability to hit what I shoot at in my CCW class and on game. I carry reloads or store bought ammo. Because I load most of my ammo, but buy a small amount to suppliment based on cost and timing. I generally study gun, ammo and reloading decisions for months or years. For me to suddenly buy a gun and ammo my PD uses for ccw would be a questionable departure from my normal. |
December 1, 2012, 12:21 PM | #42 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
|
"In Florida vs Alvarez, he was aquitted. But according to the attorney, it could have gone either way."
But it didn't. There just isn't much in the way of a documented conviction, is there? |
December 1, 2012, 04:58 PM | #43 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
|
Quote:
You do not trick shoot ever. Center of mass, period. And in further discussion, the difference between a DA revolver with a light pull in SA and a striker is zero. The DA has the safe 10-12 lb pull and you can SELECT a lower pull by cocking it. A striker has not such select feature. A striker is already nebulous for safe pull and to lighten it up further takes an iffy situation and makes it worse (and I except the MPs with the safety, that is like having a 1911). Only glock PR has made it acceptable. |
|
December 1, 2012, 05:06 PM | #44 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
|
As with everything else there are lots of opinions. I customize my guns for ME, the grip, the trigger, the sights. In that way I shoot them best. I am not worried about someone saying I accidentally shot someone, unless it was not me that shot them.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. |
December 1, 2012, 05:48 PM | #45 | |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
Quote:
This couldn't be farther from the truth. The defender does not get to decide that the shoot was righteous. There have been MANY "good shoots" that went to court and many bad shoots that didn't. And that just criminal court. Even if you don't get charged criminally, you may well be open to civil suits. Self defense is rarely black and white. |
|
December 1, 2012, 05:59 PM | #46 | ||||
Junior member
Join Date: May 31, 2011
Posts: 180
|
like I said if its a legal shooting it will never see court. if it is a Grand jury OR judge no bill it never sees court
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hor...ng_controversy this is fla; Quote:
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy Quote:
CPRC § 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY. A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable. Quote:
Last edited by barstoolguru; December 1, 2012 at 06:21 PM. |
||||
December 2, 2012, 06:11 PM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2008
Posts: 216
|
It is pretty simple. If you modify your firearm then you better be able to articulate why. All my firearms have "trigger jobs" and I do not worry a single bit about it. I can articulate that I have done so to minimize the risk of an uninvolved party being struck with a projectile. I can also articulate the reason I use a JHP vs. a FMJ is to minimize the risk of overpenetration that could also cause an uninvolved party to be struck with a projectile.
We can all pretend that during a high stress situation we will hit out target every time with a heavy trigger because we go to the range and shoot on a regular basis, but the simple fact is that will not be the case. That has been proven time and time again. I have a family member who is an excellent shooter and has been a shooter for 30+ years. He was involved in a shooting at very close range with a revolver. Out of 3 shots fired, he hit his target 1 time. If it is a righteous shoot then it will not matter, if it is not a righteous shoot then it still does not matter. We are allowed to have trigger jobs on our firearms if they are our personal weapons as long as the armorer inspects the work and determines it is safe. |
December 2, 2012, 10:43 PM | #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 11, 2012
Posts: 108
|
I will be taking delivery of a filthy gen 2 G19 by around Tuesday. I fully anticipate the pistol having a NY trigger. I plan on shooting a hundred rounds through it before installing the Ghost trigger connector and stock Glock trigger spring that I already ordered.
I believe either set up is safe but I already own the finest trigger ever put on a striker fired pistol in the history of the world: Walther PPQ. I didn't realize I had to spend $30 to get a Glock trigger on par with its competition. As a relatively new shooter, I find the believe that a carry gun needs a stout double action trigger to be "safe" pretty silly. |
December 3, 2012, 12:01 PM | #49 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 939
|
Quote:
Tell that to Harold Fish. (Initial investigator said it was a legal shoot, turns out it was, after 2 trials and 3 years in prison for Mr. Fish) Your ignorance in this matter stinks. All it takes is an anti-gun DA who wants to make an name for himself. He will use anything he can to get you convicted. Quote:
In other words, I'd rather get my information from someone who's actually sat in and read the facts of HUNDREDS of self-defense cases (many of which he can't talk about for various reasons) than some mall ninja who thinks it's ok to tinker with his carry piece because afterall, its a clean shoot that matters! Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Gaerek; December 3, 2012 at 12:08 PM. |
||||
December 3, 2012, 02:24 PM | #50 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 6,429
|
Quote:
+1 w/ Gaerek I don't see why some people aren't grasping the facts. IF you modify the function or even LOOK of your gun it will look terrible in court. Believe me. The punisher symbols, the light trigger, anything that can be used against you in the court of law will be used against you. Is it worth the extra headache? If people are telling you DON'T DO IT why would you do? Ok..great..in the long run it's "fine" after $XXX,XXX is it worth it to prove a point? Keep your carry guns factory! We're brothers here. With the same common interest. Looking out for each other. If there's a chance and risk don't take it. |
|
|
|