Gun Ban for the Elderly?

ThorntonMelon · January 28, 2009, 11:05 AM

Anybody know if this is real or not?

http://jumpinginpools.blogspot.com/2...r-elderly.html

Tuesday, January 27, 2009
Guns to Be Banned for Elderly
Staff Reports
United Press International
Washington

Deputy Attorney General Designate David Ogden is circulating a draft of an executive order in which, among other things, firearms possession would be severely limited to people over 60.

An assistant to Ogden told us, "It appears that in these changing times, it is no longer necessary to allow the elderly to be armed. With all of their physical ailments and increasing senility, to leave them in control of a deadly weapon would be ludicrous."

While the Executive Order may sound too powerful, experts in Constitutional law state that it is not actually un-Constitutional.

"It's a question of wording." states Columbia Law Professor, Dr. John Braxton. "The Constitution forbids the Congress, that is, the legislative branch, from passing any laws infringing on gun ownership. The executive branch is not included in this proviso. As long as the Congress doesn't get involved, it's technically a non-issue."

The Justice Department was tossing the idea of a gun ban for seniors during the Carter and Clinton Administration, but public opinion stopped these initiatives. Now, the Obama White House believes differently.

An unnamed aide close to Ogden agreed to talk on the condition of anonymity.

"Clinton and Carter didn't have as much of a mandate as President Obama. They were both Southerners, and the Second Amendment was sacrosanct to their constituents. However, President Obama comes from a new sort of politics, where divisive issues like firearms do not apply to him."

"Quite frankly, it's a shame that no one has had the good conscience to have done this already. It's a simple process, and the majority of the American people will understand it and follow the law."

The enforcement mechanism for this particular executive order has not been published. It is likely that the confiscation of weapons will be similar to Great Britain's handgun ban, in which citizens willingly gave the weapons to police.

It is expected that the executive order will be given around July 1, when senior-related gun deaths reach their peaks.

The aide to Ogden stated: "For eight years you see the rolling back of regulation, and crime has skyrocketed. In fact, in Massachusetts alone, murders have risen 50% since 2002. Armed robbery has also risen dramatically. With such circumstances, we must act boldly."

johnwilliamson062 · January 28, 2009, 11:43 AM

First, I want to see a reasonable source on this.
Second, no way.

Just in case there is some merit to this:
Remember, as long as he just goes after a minority groups one at a time probably the majority will go along with it.

Bartholomew Roberts · January 28, 2009, 11:55 AM

Frankly, I am skeptical that someone who has yet to be nominated for his position as Deputy Attorney General is giving press conferences designed to anger both AARP and the NRA prior to his nomination.

I googled some of the key phrases in the "article" and none of them turned up on any news site. The only place they showed up was a post on Free Republic saying "Is this real or is this satire?"

Quote:

"The Constitution forbids the Congress, that is, the legislative branch, from passing any laws infringing on gun ownership. The executive branch is not included in this proviso. As long as the Congress doesn't get involved, it's technically a non-issue."

I'm also skeptical at the supposed constitutional interpretation as well. First of all, I am not aware of any case suggesting the Bill of Rights is a restriction only on Congress. The Bill of Rights is a restriction on all of the Federal government. Second, unlike the First Amendment (Congress shall make no law...), the Second Amendment does not limit who it is applied to. Finally, even if we buy the analysis that the Constitution only forbids Congress, the authority for the President to act by Executive Order comes from either Congressional action or the Constitution. If Congress is forbidden from acting, then the only source of authority for the President to issue an Executive Order would be the Constitution - and I haven't seen anything in there about stripping elderly citizens of their fundamental liberty interests without any action from Congress.

All in all, the whole article looks like a paranoid fantasy of the type popular in ARFCOM General Discussion.

Tuzo · January 28, 2009, 11:58 AM

An assistant to Ogden told us, "It appears that in these changing times, it is no longer necessary to allow the elderly to be armed. With all of their physical ailments and increasing senility, to leave them in control of a deadly weapon would be ludicrous."

Would not this apply by extension to many increasingly senile members of congress since they have the partial power to control our armed forces (a deadly weapon)? Did former vp Cheney instigate this during a hunting trip accident a few years ago? Note that he is over 60 and, using this train of logic, he is partially to completely dangerously senile.

This is merely another attempt using a faulty syllogism (senility relates to old age; all elderly people are old; therefore, all elderly people are senile) to impose another level of gun restriction.

Bartholomew Roberts · January 28, 2009, 12:04 PM

Quote:

This is merely another attempt using a faulty syllogism (senility relates to old age; all elderly people are old; therefore, all elderly people are senile) to impose another level of gun restriction.

My bet is that it is probably just a pro-gun poster making up a story to get people riled up. There are too many ridiculous statements in there for me to believe it - even coming from this administration.

Severely restrict people over 60? Has anyone looked at Congress lately? I don't see that happening.

Al Norris · January 28, 2009, 12:10 PM

I want verification. I'm not even gonna be concerned until I have something concrete about this.

Evan Thomas · January 28, 2009, 12:18 PM

I did a quick search of the UPI site, and this article ain't there.

And if you look at the blogspot link provided by the OP, this "article" is tagged as satire. Enough said.

Creature · January 28, 2009, 12:19 PM

An automobile ban before a gun ban for the elderly would be more likely.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 28, 2009, 12:31 PM

There have been some scholarly articles in the psychiatric lit on the elderly and guns:

Behavioral Sciences and the Law
Behav. Sci. Law 25: 405–423 (2007)
Published online in Wiley InterScience

Granny, (Don’t) Get Your Gun:
Competency Issues in Gun
Ownership by Older Adults
Edith Greene, Ph.D.,*BrianH. Bornstein,

This article explores the possible risks associated with gun
ownership by older adults. We summarize existing regulations
on who may own firearms, especially with respect to
age. We then present data on older gun owners and violence
committed by older adults in general, followed by a discussion
of gun violence perpetrated by gun owners whose functional
and cognitive abilities have declined, perhaps as a result
of dementia. For comparison purposes, we review regulations
on driving among older adults, drawing parallels to gun ownership.
The paper concludes with recommendations for ensuring
the safety of older gun owners and others, balanced against
citizens’ right to bear arms, and with some directions for
research. Copyright # 2007 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

So if one wants a review of the issue - you might check it out.

If this OP report is true - that's another issue. And whether it would pass muster as an executive order is another. Sound a little tin foil to me. But we will see.

The reference given is for those who want to read a techy review. You can probably get a copy on line - perhaps for a fee. Look to Google scholar.

Al Norris · January 28, 2009, 04:48 PM

Can't find any verification for this.

Closed until someone sends us a PM with a verifying link.

January 28, 2009, 11:05 AM	#1
ThorntonMelon Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Posts: 26	Gun Ban for the Elderly? Anybody know if this is real or not? http://jumpinginpools.blogspot.com/2...r-elderly.html Tuesday, January 27, 2009 Guns to Be Banned for Elderly Staff Reports United Press International Washington Deputy Attorney General Designate David Ogden is circulating a draft of an executive order in which, among other things, firearms possession would be severely limited to people over 60. An assistant to Ogden told us, "It appears that in these changing times, it is no longer necessary to allow the elderly to be armed. With all of their physical ailments and increasing senility, to leave them in control of a deadly weapon would be ludicrous." While the Executive Order may sound too powerful, experts in Constitutional law state that it is not actually un-Constitutional. "It's a question of wording." states Columbia Law Professor, Dr. John Braxton. "The Constitution forbids the Congress, that is, the legislative branch, from passing any laws infringing on gun ownership. The executive branch is not included in this proviso. As long as the Congress doesn't get involved, it's technically a non-issue." The Justice Department was tossing the idea of a gun ban for seniors during the Carter and Clinton Administration, but public opinion stopped these initiatives. Now, the Obama White House believes differently. An unnamed aide close to Ogden agreed to talk on the condition of anonymity. "Clinton and Carter didn't have as much of a mandate as President Obama. They were both Southerners, and the Second Amendment was sacrosanct to their constituents. However, President Obama comes from a new sort of politics, where divisive issues like firearms do not apply to him." "Quite frankly, it's a shame that no one has had the good conscience to have done this already. It's a simple process, and the majority of the American people will understand it and follow the law." The enforcement mechanism for this particular executive order has not been published. It is likely that the confiscation of weapons will be similar to Great Britain's handgun ban, in which citizens willingly gave the weapons to police. It is expected that the executive order will be given around July 1, when senior-related gun deaths reach their peaks. The aide to Ogden stated: "For eight years you see the rolling back of regulation, and crime has skyrocketed. In fact, in Massachusetts alone, murders have risen 50% since 2002. Armed robbery has also risen dramatically. With such circumstances, we must act boldly."

January 28, 2009, 11:43 AM	#2
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	First, I want to see a reasonable source on this. Second, no way. Just in case there is some merit to this: Remember, as long as he just goes after a minority groups one at a time probably the majority will go along with it. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; January 28, 2009 at 11:48 AM.

January 28, 2009, 11:58 AM	#4
Tuzo Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2007 Location: Louisiana Posts: 797	Politicians as weapons An assistant to Ogden told us, "It appears that in these changing times, it is no longer necessary to allow the elderly to be armed. With all of their physical ailments and increasing senility, to leave them in control of a deadly weapon would be ludicrous." Would not this apply by extension to many increasingly senile members of congress since they have the partial power to control our armed forces (a deadly weapon)? Did former vp Cheney instigate this during a hunting trip accident a few years ago? Note that he is over 60 and, using this train of logic, he is partially to completely dangerously senile. This is merely another attempt using a faulty syllogism (senility relates to old age; all elderly people are old; therefore, all elderly people are senile) to impose another level of gun restriction.

January 28, 2009, 12:31 PM	#9
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	There have been some scholarly articles in the psychiatric lit on the elderly and guns: Behavioral Sciences and the Law Behav. Sci. Law 25: 405–423 (2007) Published online in Wiley InterScience Granny, (Don’t) Get Your Gun: Competency Issues in Gun Ownership by Older Adults Edith Greene, Ph.D.,BrianH. Bornstein, This article explores the possible risks associated with gun ownership by older adults. We summarize existing regulations on who may own firearms, especially with respect to age. We then present data on older gun owners and violence committed by older adults in general, followed by a discussion of gun violence perpetrated by gun owners whose functional and cognitive abilities have declined, perhaps as a result of dementia. For comparison purposes, we review regulations on driving among older adults, drawing parallels to gun ownership. The paper concludes with recommendations for ensuring the safety of older gun owners and others, balanced against citizens’ right to bear arms, and with some directions for research. Copyright # 2007 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd. So if one wants a review of the issue - you might check it out. If this OP report is true - that's another issue. And whether it would pass muster as an executive order is another. Sound a little tin foil to me. But we will see. The reference given is for those who want to read a techy review. You can probably get a copy on line - perhaps for a fee. Look to Google scholar. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens*

January 28, 2009, 12:10 PM	#6
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	I want verification. I'm not even gonna be concerned until I have something concrete about this.

January 28, 2009, 12:18 PM	#7
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	I did a quick search of the UPI site, and this article ain't there. And if you look at the blogspot link provided by the OP, this "article" is tagged as satire. Enough said.

January 28, 2009, 12:19 PM	#8
Creature Junior member Join Date: April 8, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,769	An automobile ban before a gun ban for the elderly would be more likely.

January 28, 2009, 04:48 PM	#10
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Can't find any verification for this. Closed until someone sends us a PM with a verifying link.