How to reduce expansion on a JHP

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Ritchey:

Those Barnes bullets might work, but at $1 per projectile, that's cost prohibitive.

We have to use around a 230gr HP for this because that is what our customer wants.

Seems to me if the "customer" wants a specialty gun and wishes to shoot projectiles intended for the velocities of that specialty gun, that a $1 a pop for ammo is not prohibitive, but the norm. You don't buy a lion if you can't afford to feed it, you buy a housecat instead. You don't buy a Ferrari if you can't afford the gas and maintenance, you buy a Ford Focus. Your time at trying to make the standard .451 HPs work must be costing the customer something. Custom ammo in itself is not cheap. If the customer wants to go cheap and desires penetration over expansion, there's always FMJ and hard cast. This is a prime example of trying to make a firearm and it's standard caliber something it is not.

[Ritchey]

JIM243 - I have just recently read something about putting a drop of superglue and it did delay expansion. Think it was tested on a 380 or something to help get it through the denim layers and into the gel. Its worth a shot.

Buck460 - I understand your perspective, but this caliber has been around over 15 years, but it obviously isn't mainstream enough for the bullet manufacturers to make hollow points that operate at this velocity. I'm just trying to make these 230gr HP function correctly by simple and economical means. This is a huge opportunity for both us and the customer if I can figure something out.

Believe me, I know all of the reasons you couldn't, wouldn't, and shouldn't, but it's worth asking our fellow gun nuts for any experience and advice. Isn't the whole wildcat thing about pushing for something new or better?

[44 AMP]

Call the different bullet makers and ask them if they have a .451 bullet that will give controlled expansion at 1350fps.

Most likely they do not. Most will be made for the up to 1000fps common with the .45acp. Getting both the expansion and the penetration you want in gelatin at 1350fps needs a differently designed and built bullet. Different jacket alloy or thickness is most likely the key, not so much the lead core.

As a field "work around", plugging or partially filling the hollow point with different materials might give you what you want, you'll just have to experiment.

Bullet makers CAN make a bullet to do just what you want. BUT since its not an item with an established market, you'll have to order at least half a million or so (cash up front, please)...

And, if you think you are having trouble at 1350fps, try shooting them out of a .45 Win Mag at over 1500fps in a 6 or 7" barrel, and over 1800 from a 14"tube!

[rg1]

May not be easy but a sizing die that reduces the size of the hollowpoint opening. If you could turn in the tip in making it a little more like a fmj it would definitely reduce expansion.

[buck460XVR]

Isn't the whole wildcat thing about pushing for something new or better?

Big difference between something "new and different" and something that is "better". As you said, the .460 is not a "new" wildcat, and even as such, no major bullet manufacturer has gone out of it's way to produce a specific bullet for it. If the .460 was such a great improvement, there would be bullets made for it, like many of the more popular wildcats that are now "mainstream" calibers.

This is a huge opportunity for both us and the customer if I can figure something out.

Hard to believe the solution to a huge opportunity would be a drop of super glue or silicone caulk in a HP. Especially when there are other options out there like the Barnes bullet, hard cast and FMJs. There are also .451 225 gr JHP bullets intended for .45 Colt that may perform better at .460 velocities than caulk filled .45 ACP bullets. One reason the .45 ACP bullets expand so fast is the thinness of the jacket. The drop of super glue or the dab of caulk is going to do nuttin' to increase it's resistance to expansion.

Why the desire for an expanding bullet in .460 runnin' so fast? Hunting where FMJ is not allowed? Again, Hard Cast sized appropriately would seem to be a simpler and more reliable solution than super glue or caulk in that scenario as would a FMJ for dangerous game protection. In the case of human predators, it's hard to believe the over expansion of the .460 on a human would be of any concern compared to the over-penetration of a more solid projectile.

I'll also repeat, IMHO, anyone that desires to shoot a odd-ball, uncommon caliber is not going to get by shooting "cheap" ammo. Nature of the beast. Seems the "customer" just needs to "man-up" and pay the piper for his addiction.

[snuffy]

99% of the time I'd agree that .001" difference wouldn't matter. However, since these rounds are running 40,000 PSI chamber pressure, they are pushing the limit of the case on some of the chambers with less support than the 1911 and it's at the max that a large pistol primer will handle. If I can't make any of the .451" choices work, I'll definitely size the .452" down. I know extra diameter adds resistance but don't know what that equals in pressure.

IF you attempt to size down a jacketed bullet, you will cause the jacket to loosen up from the lead core. Reason is the lead will swage down, then the jacket will spring back, letting go of the core. You would then be in worse shape than if you did nothing.

I can see if you already have these bullets, and the cost was right, why you'd like to try to make them work. But sometimes you just can't. The XTP MAG has a different HP design and a thicker jacket. Get the bullet you need instead of trying to make something work.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

can you find something left over from the 45 Win Mag era ??? I used to shoot one in a Contender barrel... though I remember most factory loads were FMJ, there may still be something on someone's inventory list left over from that cartridge???

or... a spot of JB weld rubbed into the HP may give you what you're looking for???

do you know what Buffalo Bore is using for their bullets ???

these appear brass jacketed, rather than copper jacketed ???

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/193...ProductFinding

[SHR970]

Speer Part # 4481

260 gr. JHP for 45 Colt / 460 S&W Diameter = .451

Late last night the 45 WM came to mind....the 225 gr. bullet appears discontinued but the 260 lives on.

[WESHOOT2]

Had a customer who desired nuke 230g JHPs from his 45 Colt revolver.

I tried everything but adhesives (to keep the bullet from jumping crimp at these elevated nuke levels).
Couldn't do it; know what I mean?


You're NOT going to make an effective 230g JHP load at 1300fps+ UNLESS you choose a proper projectile, and all the super glues in the world won't really help.

Recommend a .452" Hornady 'Mag' bullet; test that first. Then find some 250/260g .451" jacketed bullets to test......

[Misssissippi Dave]

Interesting project. Just a thought for you. Montana Gold does make a 230 JHP bullet. Their JHP bullets are designed for accuracy and not expansion. Have you give one of them a try?

http://montanagoldbullet.com/media/c..._jhp_top_2.jpg

[Mike Irwin]

I may be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that you cannot heat harden copper to any degree.

Working copper hardens it, heating it anneals it.

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Mike Irwin:

I may be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that you cannot heat harden copper to any degree.

Working copper hardens it, heating it anneals it.

Also, the heating of the two dissimilar metals in a Jacketed HP may weaken the mechanical bond between them and make them separate or expand at even lower velocities.

[Mike Irwin]

Good point, Buck, I'd not even thought about that.

This is simply a case of trying to make a bullet do what it is not designed to do, and realistically what it can never do.

[JD0x0]

FWIW sierra bullets .45 cal are .4515 (going back to my point that .452 probably isn't too large)

They also have a 240 grain JHC which is supposed to function from everything from .45acp velocities up through moderate 454 Casull loads.

[dwhite]

I work in sales. Sometimes you have to tell the customer it can't be done.

Just the way it is.

And if you can't, chances are no one else can either.

All the Best,
D. White

[std7mag]

My one thought was....

What the heck are you trying to penetrate????

[SHR970]

buck460xvr wrote:Also, the heating of the two dissimilar metals in a Jacketed HP may weaken the mechanical bond between them and make them separate or expand at even lower velocities.

Actually in this case you are incorrect. The temperature range that the OP wants to work at depending on the actual bullet lead alloy could melt the lead and solder it to the copper. Speer used that principle in their Hot Core bullets for many years. You get a better bond between the jacket and core.

Even if the alloy is noneutectic you could end up with a semi solder bond which is still better than a strictly mechanical bond.

Still if you flow the lead, you markedly change the interior configuration of the bullet in a way that is directly opposite of what is desired here.

A major problem with the idea of heat treating is not knowing the alloy in the first place. Lead melts around 620 F. 60 / 40 solder at around 370 F. At 450 F (the OP's specified temp for hardening hard cast alloy) you could melt certain lead tin alloys. If the allow is 10:1 then he would be relatively safe as it melts at around 570. Still unknown alloy = risk potential.

[bfoosh006]

I would suggest Hornady XTP's and some Remington plain ol' HP's

It has been my experience that those HP's prefer speed.

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by bfoosh006

I would suggest Hornady XTP's and some Remington plain ol' HP's

I dunno about the Remington's, but the Hornady XTP is one of the tougher bullets for the $, and I would definitely test them. Otherwise the Speer 260gr JHP will put you in the 1100'ish fps range and they probably will hold together better - but I've never seen them tested.