Severely rusted winchester 1873 - what to do about this screw!

[nanjason]

I was given a really badly rusted winchester 1873 recently. I'm talking absolutely rusted everywhere, both inside and out. The lever is frozen in place, the hammer is missing so I can see the insides and they are all rusted too. I figured what the heck, I might as well see if I can salvage any part of it. So I have used very fine steel wool with Rem Oil and it seems to be working, although there is some pitting. But now I am up against disassembly I am finding it almost impossible.

The screw holding the action plates on is absolutely frozen. (Same with all but 2 of the other ones). I started with a set of Magna-Tips from Brownells, tried and tried to no avail. Tried some WD-40, no use. Then PB Blast, no use. Tried heat, no luck. So tonight i brought out the big guns and tried a screw extractor. Drilled and started turning, it grabbed tightly and I felt confident, but the darn thing is so frozen in place the screw extractor broke! So now that hole in the screw is filled with the remains of a screw extractor.

Any ideas? I'm pondering a drill press and just drill the entire screw out. Either that or just give up on the thing.

Why oh why would someone let an 1873 sit in a storage locker for who knows how long! What a shame.

[FrankenMauser]

If you want to drill that screw out, I suggest trying to get the broken tool piece(s) out first.

Can you slot the top of the screw from the other side and get it turning from that side?


In general, be sure to really work the penetrating oil on the screw as you remove it. By that, I mean work it back and forth, and make sure that you have plenty of oil available to fill the threads. Going straight for the brute force removal, because it turned a little bit, is the easiest way to shear a rusted screw.

[Gunplummer]

Yeah, what FrankenMauser said. Get the rest of the screw extractor out first. Using that was your first mistake. Then order two or three left hand drill bits just under the minor diameter of the screw threads. Use a drill press on the lowest speed possible. While waiting for the drill bits, soak the whole thing in a pan of AT fluid for about a week or two. Patience is everything in these situations.

[dahermit]

Tried some WD-40, no use. Then PB Blast, no use.

You should have asked here first. For anything rusted that bad, it should have been soaked in penetrating oil for days. Many people have found that a 50-50 mix of transmission fluid and acetone works very well. In short, when it comes to "fixing" firearms, if you don't know how...don't. Or as the Hippocratic oath states, "First, do not harm."

[RH Custom Guns]

Hey, these mistakes are all part of the learning process. Don't count it as a failure, count it as experience gained.

Unfortunately, it does sound like you've made a little more work for yourself and the screw will probably have to be drilled completely out. It's difficult to center a drill in the screw hole in these situations so be sure to use a bit that is smaller than the minor diameter of the threads. Go a little smaller if you are unsure; you can always run a bigger drill through it.

In the future, I would recommend two things: First, Kroil. Kroil really penetrates well, especially when combined with a little heat. Heat the part up until it is almost too hot to touch (not too hot) and squirt Kroil around the screw. Let it soak a day or so and try. If it doesn't come out, soak and try again. It can take a long time so, as was mentioned before, be patient.

The other thing I would try is some Brownell's blue and rust remover. This will ruin any remaining finish but, on guns that are completely rusted, it really does a good job of detaching the rust from the surface. Follow the rust remover with the Kroil method.

Good luck!

Ryan Hoover
RH Custom Guns
Fredericksburg, TX

[Clark]

You must sing this song:
"Kroil Kroil Kroil Kroil Kroil Kroil"*

* to the tune of "Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam" by monty python

[nanjason]

Thank you all for your input! It may be a while till I have access to a drill press - I don't own one but I guess now may be the time to get one finally. I've always made do without one till now. I mistakenly thought I had given it enough time to soak in - I sprayed PB blast and let it sit for about a week, checking it every day and re-wetting it. Yep, I'm learning! I figured this thing is so rusted it would be a good project to learn on since I've seen ones in much much much better shape at gun shows for not much money. I'll keep y'all posted on progress, thanks!

[James K]

For one thing, on a job like that, get a carbide center drill, which has a thick shank and a small short and hard tip, and is hard enough to cut through that screw extractor. Not cheap; check with Brownells. That will drill where a thin drill the same size as the tip will just wander and a high speed countersink won't be hard enough.

(You will need a decent drill press - trying to use a hand drill or a Dremel will just mess things up worse.)

Jim

[michaelcj]

One other trick with rusted/gunked/stuck screws is after all the soaking and penetrating… with a well fitted screwdriver in place and pressure on to un-screw… light to moderate tapping [with appropriately sized hammer] on the screw driver [butt end of course] will often break free that last holdout.

[Unclenick]

Yes, a Jobber's length carbide drill bit for drilling out. A tight screwdriver bit in a variable speed adjustable clutch hammer drill may help. Just start with the clutch at a low number and work up slowly.

Agree on the hand tools, though I suppose a Dremel with speed control mounted in one of those Dremel drill press conversion kits might work OK for this.

If you buy an actual drill press, most occasional users these days settle for a Chinese one, however, I've seen some atrocious chuck runout on those. But you can often get away with the economy if you buy one with a Morse taper spindle so you can separately buy a U.S. made Jacobs or a German made Albrecht chuck for it. The latter is keyless and they boast half thousandth runout specs. I bought a keyless Jacobs version that seems to be about that good, but it's not guaranteed in the spec as it is with the Albrecht.

For penetration, PB Blaster does OK and smells terrible, but I've yet to find anything that Kroil didn't do equally well or better. I also use Gunzilla CLP which has the property that if you submerge a rusted part in it and let it sit for a few weeks, you return to find the rust has fallen off the part and is lying on the bottom of the container. Leaving it for six weeks in a bore with heavily rusted pits got all the pit rust and the carbon glazing that covered them out and had it all lying loose on the bottom side of the bore, from whence a single patch pushed it all out completely. The borescope revealed there were just bright white metal pit bottoms left where the carbon glazed rust used to be. Very cool. It is slow, but very hard to beat as a rust loosener. Where I like it better than Kroil, when I have that sort of time to let something sit, is it better protects the bore the whole time the softening and falling off are going on. The rust that comes to rest on the bottom side of the bore can't start new rust underneath it.

But if you need to remove rust promptly and figure the finish isn't worth saving, try Rust Release or Evaporust. Both are chelating rust removers, so they react with the iron in the rust to take it into a non-toxic organic molecule in solution. This is easier on the steel and leaves it far less activated at the surface than the more acidic finish removers do. It's water base, and when it is done I rinse the work with water then immediately with boiling deionized or distilled water to remove the last traces and heat the surface to dry fast and leave a thin blue oxide layer that inhibits rust. I follow that with a rust inhibitive water displacing oil. Shooter's Solutions sells a good one intended as a post-phosphatizing treatment. LPS-1 is another product that displaces water, and doesn't attract dust like WD-40 does.

[Dfariswheel]

Then there's the thinking gunsmiths method.

Remove the lower tang and trigger assembly.
With a small pair of Vise-Grips, reach into the bottom of the receiver and TIGHTLY lock the Vise-Grip on the screw.
Rotate the Vise-Grip in the correct direction to unscrew the screw.

This will break even the tightest rusty 1873 plate screw loose.
Make sure to rotate the Vise-Grip in the right direction and make sure it's clamped on the screw tightly.

WARNING: When working on Winchester 1873 type rifles be very careful around the bottom of the receiver.
The lower edges are basically huge knife blades and WILL cut you to the bone.
Whenever I worked on a Winchester/Uberti I used heavy tape to cover the sharp edges.

[James K]

^^^^

On all counts. I have left blood on some of those Winchesters.

Jim

[Snyper]

Find a container large enough to hold it submerged in kerosene for a few days then try turning screws

[hartcreek]

Carbide drill bits are ok but I prefer Cobalt. I would soak it in ATF and acitone for a minimum of two weeks. Then I would use the tap method with a hardened screwdriver bit. When drilling always use a center punch to make your centers. you might be able to get that broken piece out by soaking and then shattering it with a hardened center punch. I have lucked out that way before. If I can not fit the part I need to work on in my drill press or I am afraid of brakeing drill bits I use a cordless drill and set the clutch so that it will just barely let the bit cut. Then I gently use undersize drill bits and once the correct hole is drilled the correct side tap and cut the bolt out as I clean the threads.

[James K]

Note one point. On the 73 Winchester, the side plate screw is not a short screw that holds on one sideplate. The screw goes the width of the receiver and is threaded on one end, opposite the head. Anytime you have a screw like that stuck and have to drill, you don't work on the head end, you work on the threaded end.

There is not enough screw sticking out on the threaded end to slot, and the end is domed so anything but a stiff center drill (not the same as a jobber's drill) will wander. Once you get a hole as deep as the sideplate is thick, some tension will be relieved, then you can work with a side mill to widen the hole to the point where only the threads are left. The threads can then be cut with the mill or even a Dremel tool until the screw threads are all that is in the hole. The screw can then be turned from the center (as some suggested) or from the slotted end. Once the screw is out, the leftover threads can be picked out.

Jim

[nanjason]

I like the idea of taking the lower tang and trigger assembly off then using vise grips to remove from the underside, however... 2 problems on that one - the screw from the top tang that goes through the stock and then threads into the lower tang - that's another one that's completely frozen... Second is that the lever is also completely frozen in place, so I don't think I could remove the tang and trigger assembly without being able to move the lever, even if I could get that upper tang screw out...

You've all given me a ton of great input, and seriously, I appreciate it all very much. Really, it's great how helpful you've all been - if we were all in person I'd buy a round of cold ones for you all!

I'm leaning towards the route of drilling it out from the threaded side (the non-head side), as has been suggested (drill press, stiff center bit, slowly and carefully, then cleaning the threads etc). Either way a good soaking sounds like it's in my future!

Thanks again. I will try to figure out how to upload a picture of what it looked like when I started and maybe a few here and there as I progress.

-Jason

[skizzums]

most of us use www.photobucket.com for pics. you can upload your pics to it from a phone app, or from your computer, then either quickly add a link to your pic or just imbed right into the thread. its very easy and its free. i would love to see what this thing looks like.

[nanjason]

Let's see if this works:

http://s284.photobucket.com/user/nan...chester%201873

[Dfariswheel]

Yes, that does appear to have some rust on it.

As above, your best move it a thorough soaking of all screws with Kroil.
Kroil is a super penetrating fluid well known for breaking rust frozen screws loose.
It'll penetrate a crack one millionth of an inch wide.
Put a good drop on all screws, both ends if you can and let soak a day or so.
As it penetrates put another drop where needed.

Make sure you're using good gunsmith screwdriver bits. The best are Brownell's Magna-Tip, and they can also be chucked in an UN-plugged drill press and the screw turned out by hand.

Usually, if you use real Kroil and give it time it'll help remove just about any rusted screw.

[Bill DeShivs]

Let me make a suggestion-
Soak the action in EvapoRust for a day or so first. Then wash with soapy water, rinse, dry with heat gun or hair dryer, THEN use Kroil.

[cecILL]

Hang it on the wall.

[FrankenMauser]

That doesn't look nearly as bad as I was expecting.

With time and patience, I think you can get it.

[James K]

I agree. I have actually seen worse that worked!

Jim

[Clark]

I got this 1873 made in 1886 for ~$750 a couple months ago and was happy to get it. I had to know someone who knew someone who knew the orig owner's great great grandson.

My stocks are falling off and the pits are about as deep as the OP's will be after the Evapo Rust treatment.

[James K]

When I first started working as a gunsmith, there were a lot of 73's still in use as hunting rifles, so I became pretty familiar with them and trying to keep them running. Of course, there also were a fair number of original NOS parts available so it was not as bad that way as it is now.

Several months ago I got a pretty decent '73 (.32-20) with a lot of original finish but with the wood in sad shape. I am not much of a wood worker, but I got a stock set from Gun Parts and took it slow. The result is not a real "restoration", but is not at all bad and a lot better than it was. I even found the secret of getting that reddish color, Tapadera's N-35 stain.

Jim