The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 24, 2013, 06:41 PM   #1
sixgunluv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2008
Posts: 200
Police say defective bullets?

http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/...cking-s/nXTXT/
sixgunluv is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 06:47 PM   #2
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,786
Gonna try to save this to prevent it being closed as a drive-by. The link is about 40 cal. pistols not stopping bad guys after 2 high profile incidents in Pittsburg even after being hit multiple times. The ammo was tested and shown to work normally.

I think this is a good example of how at times some people just don't want to die. There are many examples of people who have been shot multiple times and just keep on going.

Here is a good example

http://www.psywarrior.com/benavidez.html
jmr40 is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 08:09 PM   #3
sixgunluv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2008
Posts: 200
Article

Actually what i got out of this article was that the police expect the bad guys to drop when shot in their pinky toe. Did you notice the part where it describes where the suspect was shot? "five times — in the chest, hip, leg, wrist and possibly in the finger." I bet it was the chest shot that ended it.


It's all about shot placement. I have seen other recent articles like this where they have said the suspect was shot 8 times..... once in the knee, finger, wrist, outer thigh, ear, buttocks, foot, and once in the chest..........probably the one that put him down.
sixgunluv is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 08:31 PM   #4
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,712
If you don't do sufficient damage to significant structures then you should not expect stops.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 08:45 PM   #5
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
It's easy to read between the lines here and point out things I've been shouting about for years:
  • Handguns are marginal manstoppers at best
  • As such, one must train regularly if they're to be a primary weapon
  • That is even more important for those who go in harm's way as a vocation
  • Those who do need more that "yearly testing" on the range
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 08:55 PM   #6
Fishing_Cabin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 720
If you are in a situation where deadly force is required, continue applying deadly force until the threat is no longer there. Nothing else to say. I dont care if its a .40S&W or a .999ManStopper. Who cares. If you have to defend yourself. You defend yourself until there is no longer a threat.
Fishing_Cabin is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 09:11 PM   #7
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,413
What seems to be needed is for police training to include a reality check -- officers need to understand that, unlike in the movies, in real life one shot to the left pinkie will NOT pick up a drug-crazed body builder and hurl him through a concrete block wall.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 09:25 PM   #8
BlueEyeVisage
Member
 
Join Date: April 1, 2013
Location: Palm City, FL
Posts: 20
If the police thinks .40 Caliber which is one of the most powerful pistol cartridges in a civilians arsenal is inadequate, why are they trying to limit the amount of rounds we can carry?

Bullet damage is associated by tearing, force, and evisceration. All which require time for bleed out or for the affected organ to be vital and also to stop operating. These LEO's apparently also need anatomy classes, they aren't using Star Wars lasers. :P
BlueEyeVisage is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 09:37 PM   #9
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,712
Quote:
If the police thinks .40 Caliber which is one of the most powerful pistol cartridges in a civilians arsenal is inadequate, why are they trying to limit the amount of rounds we can carry?
First and as noted, the police are apparently confused. Second, it isn't the police who are trying to limit the rounds we can carry.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 09:50 PM   #10
BlueEyeVisage
Member
 
Join Date: April 1, 2013
Location: Palm City, FL
Posts: 20
Quote:
First and as noted, the police are apparently confused. Second, it isn't the police who are trying to limit the rounds we can carry.
I know the police aren't. However, the argument is usually that they are pushing limiting the amount of rounds we have due to police being "outgunned" and also typically they go by information released by "police". Living in Florida I have the good feeling that every one of the Sheriffs within my fair state had stated they would not enforce laws that oppress our constitutional rights.

Sorry about saying they without stating what I meant by they. I know cops aren't gun grabbing. :P
BlueEyeVisage is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 09:58 PM   #11
Old Grump
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in
Posts: 3,144
Remember this story from last year. Man entered a movie theater looking for his wife to kill her and met a woman deputy sheriff who was working security at the theater. Took her 4 shots at close range before she put his guy down.

http://thespeechatimeforchoosing.wor...e-he-can-kill/

9MM or 45 ACP or 22 LR, it doesn't matter much if you don't hit the magic spot and turn off the lights. It;s why some of us old timer coaches get crabby if the people carrying guns do not put in the trigger time. It's no guarantee but it sure ups the odds.
__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
--Daniel Webster--
Old Grump is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 10:44 PM   #12
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
Points; FBI protocol tests...

Here are a few random points, re; Pittsburgh PD & the .40S&W Federal loads...
1) the FBI protocol tests are open source & available to the general public. The protocol tests are shown for many, many handgun brands(DPX, Critical Duty, HST-ATK/Federal, Golden Saber, Ranger-T/T Series, Speer Gold Dot, etc).
2) Id consider the "best" LE or duty round(.40) now to be the Hornady Critical Duty 175gr .40S&W. it does very well in the FBI protocol tests. There is 0 wrong with the Golden Saber 165gr, the Ranger T/T Series 155gr, the DPX, or the Speer Gold Dot 165gr JHP.
3) IUP is a well known school or program for police science/criminal justice. Both my parents went there in the 1960s. Go Crimson Hawks!
4) The Pittsburgh PD has a long history of bad decisions & admin problems. It's not cop-bashing. They were under a DoJ Consent Decree, . The former chief; Nate Harper is under a lot of heat by the FBI & is reported to plea guilty on several criminal charges.
5) 100s of sworn LE officers across the USA have packed .40 sidearms for over 20 years. Pittsburgh PD has issued Glock .40S&W models since the late 1990s.
6) R&Ds or procurement tests should be done to ensure the selection of the best ammunition. Bar talk or $$$ shouldn't effect the final contract but it does way to often.

CF
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 10:47 PM   #13
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,413
:cough: FBI. April 11, 1986. Miami. :cough:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The shootout involved ten people: two suspects and eight FBI agents. Of the ten, only one, Special Agent Manauzzi, did not fire any shots (firearm thrown from car in initial collision), while only one, Special Agent Risner, was able to emerge from the battle without a wound. The incident lasted under five minutes yet approximately 145 shots were exchanged.[7][23]

Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were drug-free at the time of their deaths.
And from this site: http://www.examiner.com/article/a-lo...27-years-later

Quote:
Dove, one of the other SWAT trained agents, fired approximately 20 rounds from his S&W Model 459 during the fight. He hit Platt in the chest as Platt was climbing out of his car. Dove’s 9mm bullet caused Platt to suffer what was later described as a “non survivable” wound. Unfortunately, even with a collapsed lung and with blood pooling in his chest, Platt continued to fight.

During the fight Platt continued to move and use cover while shooting in different directions at different agents as he saw them. He wounded Manauzzi and shot McNeill in the hand as he attempted to reload his revolver. He shot Mireles in the left forearm as Mireles came up to engage him with a 12 gauge shotgun. He shot McNeil again, in the neck this time, which left the agent paralyzed for several hours.

Platt killed Grogan and Dove after moving around the car they were using as cover while they were trying to fix Dove’s pistol, which had been hit by one of Platt’s .223 rounds and rendered inoperable. Neither Grogan nor Dove apparently heard the warnings shouted by other agents in the fight at that time.

The whole time Platt was also taking hits from various agents. In addition to the chest shot, Dove also hit Platt in the thigh and foot. He was also likely hit by Special Agents Ronald Risner (also SWAT trained and with a S&W 459) and Gilbert Orrantia,
Nope. No such thing as a one-shot stop ... unless it's a very lucky shot.

And the bad guys in Miami weren't hopped up on dope.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 24, 2013, 11:15 PM   #14
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
And once, "again"...

The Miami Florida Platt-Matix shooting.

It's a NBC TV movie too; The FBI Murders 1988, www.imdb.com .

Other good ref films include FX's 44 Minutes about the 1997 North Hollywood BoA event.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old April 25, 2013, 12:23 AM   #15
JD0x0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2013
Posts: 1,037
The bullets weren't defective. They just weren't put in the right place.
JD0x0 is offline  
Old April 25, 2013, 12:38 AM   #16
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
JY youtube clip...

There's a video by James "Tactical Response" Yeager where he talks directly about this point.
Yeager correctly explains that there is a significant difference between power & lethality.
A violent felon can be hit center mass by a powerful round & still fight(ie: kill good guys) before they expire(or stop). Author & legal use of force expert; Massad Ayoob made the same point to in a few gun press articles.
As discussed at length many many times on TFL & other gun forums, a solid hit to the "tactical T zone"(the area around the nose/eyes) will drop most subjects but you(the armed citizen or armed professional) should carry enough gun & be able to quickly aim/fire at a subject.

To me, there's no point in a violent felon to soak up 10-20 hits from a .25acp or a .380acp from a license holder.

CF
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old April 25, 2013, 06:13 AM   #17
45_auto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,399
Quote:
To me, there's no point in a violent felon to soak up 10-20 hits from a .25acp or a .380acp from a license holder.
So what's the point of a violent felon like Michael Platt soaking up 10-20 (12 actually) hits from .38, 9mm, and .357? You think it would have made any difference if the shooters were license holders rather than FBI Special Agents????
45_auto is offline  
Old April 25, 2013, 08:32 AM   #18
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
But I thought the 40 cal was supposed to be a 1 shot stop 100% of the time? I guess we better buy all the LEO's in this country new firearms in 10MM or something bigger!

As has been said, handguns are not reliable man stoppers. You will always have situations where because someone is in an altered state(due to drugs) they take an extreme amount of punishment before going down. I am not sure even had the officers been using M-4 style carbines it would have made much of a difference.

The sad truth of the matter is below a 30 caliber rifle round of some sort you are not likely to get a "one shot stop" unless you get a head shot or maybe a shot directly to the heart. Follow up shots may be needed and shots to non vital areas may be ineffective.
__________________
"....The swords of others will set you your limits".
Patriot86 is offline  
Old April 25, 2013, 09:46 AM   #19
deepcreek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 320
Too many people get their idea of reality from TV. People don't fly 4ft in the air and die when they are shot by the "good guy". Their is only a couple of small spots on human anatomy that will instantly kill a person which would be a pretty lucky shot on the fly.

I do also wonder about some police gun tactics now days, sending out rds, dropping clips and sending out more rounds. I know they get free ammo but after reading about many law enforcement "exchanges" it really makes me wonder.
deepcreek is offline  
Old April 25, 2013, 09:52 AM   #20
ChaseReynolds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 29, 2012
Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
Posts: 186
So the real point of this is how valuable the follow up shots are. Consistency with center mass and don't quit shooting until the threat is down are some things I think about when I go to the range.

Or are we talking about good rounds to carry and how many to bring?

Or is this about size of the gun?
ChaseReynolds is offline  
Old April 25, 2013, 10:13 AM   #21
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,712
Quote:
So what's the point of a violent felon like Michael Platt soaking up 10-20 (12 actually) hits from .38, 9mm, and .357? You think it would have made any difference if the shooters were license holders rather than FBI Special Agents????
You forgot the shotgun blast that injured both feet as well. Also as with most other such folks who "absorb" a lot of shots, most of the impacts are minor, doing little serious damage.

Quote:
I do also wonder about some police gun tactics now days, sending out rds, dropping clips and sending out more rounds. I know they get free ammo but after reading about many law enforcement "exchanges" it really makes me wonder.
Other than no typical patrol officer handguns, rifles, or shotguns not using "clips," I think it is fair to say that the number of rounds fired by cops during shootouts is not determined by the cost of the ammo, whether they paid for it themselves or whether it is covered by the department.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old April 25, 2013, 10:16 AM   #22
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepcreek
I do also wonder about some police gun tactics now days, sending out rds, dropping clips and sending out more rounds. I know they get free ammo but after reading about many law enforcement "exchanges" it really makes me wonder.
You ever tried shooting at someone who's trying to kill you? It ain't like you're taking a solid weaver-stance and poking holes in a piece of paper that's 7 feet away and not moving.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old April 25, 2013, 11:02 AM   #23
shouldazagged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2013
Location: Louisville, KY, USA
Posts: 273
When police officers carried revolvers, dump pouches for ammo, and New York reloads, the awareness of shot placement's importance received greater attention and more training. But at that time a great many LEO's had military experience and/or had grown up with firearms.

No, I'm not saying they should go back to revolvers (though at my age it's tempting to say so). But what I keep reading in posts from police officers is that training has been reduced, opportunities for practice have diminished, and the number of cops with previous weapons experience is way down. Sounds to me like a recipe for unrealistic expectations and spray-and-pray shootings of the kind we've heard about where officers fire forty rounds and hit their target seven times.

I'm not, repeat, NOT blaming the LEO's. I admire tremendously the job they do in damn near impossible situations. But it sounds as if too often they're handicapped by a system that doesn't support them adequately.
__________________
"Don't let macho be your epitaph."
---Ed Lovette

Last edited by shouldazagged; April 25, 2013 at 10:11 PM.
shouldazagged is offline  
Old April 25, 2013, 11:09 AM   #24
lcpiper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
Quote:
“You can fire a handgun at a rate of four to five rounds per second. If someone — after being shot right through the heart — has 15 seconds, they can easily fire 50 to 60 shots in that time.”
This has me questioning things a little.

I think it would be very hard to fire a handgun at this rate of fire and do anything other then keep it pointed in the basic direction of the target.

But even with a pair of 30 round mags 50 to 60 rounds in 15 seconds sounds stupidly unrealistic to me because situations do not remain unchanging like this for 15 seconds.

If all the guy is going to do is hang the gun around the corner and jerk the mags dry as fast as possible then sure, but that isn't really anything more dangerous then a risk of hearing loss.

I just don't think unrealistic statements provide much much for an argument.

As for the guys being drug free, sure, completely drug free of all but one of the most powerful drugs known to man, adrenaline.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223
lcpiper is offline  
Old April 25, 2013, 05:35 PM   #25
deepcreek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 320
Quote:
You ever tried shooting at someone who's trying to kill you? It ain't like you're taking a solid weaver-stance and poking holes in a piece of paper that's 7 feet away and not moving.
Have you? Have the majority of firearms trainers? Not many of us have and not many are alive that have. Also many of the stories I have heard were greatly exaggerated about the threats they faced.

I just keep hearing about cars, homes, buildings, that have 50+ bullet holes in them and less then 5 in the target. Were talking about 1 in 10 or less shots making it to the target.

Like you said t easy to hit paper especially at 15yds, even while rapid fire, dropping mags and reloading.

Would it be better to take a breath? idono? but it would be interesting to see some stats on shots vs hits from a couple of decades ago before semi autos and rapid fire were so popular.
deepcreek is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07773 seconds with 10 queries