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April 24, 2013, 06:41 PM | #1 |
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Police say defective bullets?
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April 24, 2013, 06:47 PM | #2 |
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Gonna try to save this to prevent it being closed as a drive-by. The link is about 40 cal. pistols not stopping bad guys after 2 high profile incidents in Pittsburg even after being hit multiple times. The ammo was tested and shown to work normally.
I think this is a good example of how at times some people just don't want to die. There are many examples of people who have been shot multiple times and just keep on going. Here is a good example http://www.psywarrior.com/benavidez.html |
April 24, 2013, 08:09 PM | #3 |
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Article
Actually what i got out of this article was that the police expect the bad guys to drop when shot in their pinky toe. Did you notice the part where it describes where the suspect was shot? "five times — in the chest, hip, leg, wrist and possibly in the finger." I bet it was the chest shot that ended it.
It's all about shot placement. I have seen other recent articles like this where they have said the suspect was shot 8 times..... once in the knee, finger, wrist, outer thigh, ear, buttocks, foot, and once in the chest..........probably the one that put him down. |
April 24, 2013, 08:31 PM | #4 |
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If you don't do sufficient damage to significant structures then you should not expect stops.
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April 24, 2013, 08:45 PM | #5 |
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It's easy to read between the lines here and point out things I've been shouting about for years:
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April 24, 2013, 08:55 PM | #6 |
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If you are in a situation where deadly force is required, continue applying deadly force until the threat is no longer there. Nothing else to say. I dont care if its a .40S&W or a .999ManStopper. Who cares. If you have to defend yourself. You defend yourself until there is no longer a threat.
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April 24, 2013, 09:11 PM | #7 |
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What seems to be needed is for police training to include a reality check -- officers need to understand that, unlike in the movies, in real life one shot to the left pinkie will NOT pick up a drug-crazed body builder and hurl him through a concrete block wall.
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April 24, 2013, 09:25 PM | #8 |
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If the police thinks .40 Caliber which is one of the most powerful pistol cartridges in a civilians arsenal is inadequate, why are they trying to limit the amount of rounds we can carry?
Bullet damage is associated by tearing, force, and evisceration. All which require time for bleed out or for the affected organ to be vital and also to stop operating. These LEO's apparently also need anatomy classes, they aren't using Star Wars lasers. :P |
April 24, 2013, 09:37 PM | #9 | |
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April 24, 2013, 09:50 PM | #10 | |
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Sorry about saying they without stating what I meant by they. I know cops aren't gun grabbing. :P |
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April 24, 2013, 09:58 PM | #11 |
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Remember this story from last year. Man entered a movie theater looking for his wife to kill her and met a woman deputy sheriff who was working security at the theater. Took her 4 shots at close range before she put his guy down.
http://thespeechatimeforchoosing.wor...e-he-can-kill/ 9MM or 45 ACP or 22 LR, it doesn't matter much if you don't hit the magic spot and turn off the lights. It;s why some of us old timer coaches get crabby if the people carrying guns do not put in the trigger time. It's no guarantee but it sure ups the odds.
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April 24, 2013, 10:44 PM | #12 |
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Points; FBI protocol tests...
Here are a few random points, re; Pittsburgh PD & the .40S&W Federal loads...
1) the FBI protocol tests are open source & available to the general public. The protocol tests are shown for many, many handgun brands(DPX, Critical Duty, HST-ATK/Federal, Golden Saber, Ranger-T/T Series, Speer Gold Dot, etc). 2) Id consider the "best" LE or duty round(.40) now to be the Hornady Critical Duty 175gr .40S&W. it does very well in the FBI protocol tests. There is 0 wrong with the Golden Saber 165gr, the Ranger T/T Series 155gr, the DPX, or the Speer Gold Dot 165gr JHP. 3) IUP is a well known school or program for police science/criminal justice. Both my parents went there in the 1960s. Go Crimson Hawks! 4) The Pittsburgh PD has a long history of bad decisions & admin problems. It's not cop-bashing. They were under a DoJ Consent Decree, . The former chief; Nate Harper is under a lot of heat by the FBI & is reported to plea guilty on several criminal charges. 5) 100s of sworn LE officers across the USA have packed .40 sidearms for over 20 years. Pittsburgh PD has issued Glock .40S&W models since the late 1990s. 6) R&Ds or procurement tests should be done to ensure the selection of the best ammunition. Bar talk or $$$ shouldn't effect the final contract but it does way to often. CF |
April 24, 2013, 10:47 PM | #13 | ||
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:cough: FBI. April 11, 1986. Miami. :cough:
Quote:
Quote:
And the bad guys in Miami weren't hopped up on dope. |
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April 24, 2013, 11:15 PM | #14 |
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And once, "again"...
The Miami Florida Platt-Matix shooting.
It's a NBC TV movie too; The FBI Murders 1988, www.imdb.com . Other good ref films include FX's 44 Minutes about the 1997 North Hollywood BoA event. |
April 25, 2013, 12:23 AM | #15 |
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The bullets weren't defective. They just weren't put in the right place.
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April 25, 2013, 12:38 AM | #16 |
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JY youtube clip...
There's a video by James "Tactical Response" Yeager where he talks directly about this point.
Yeager correctly explains that there is a significant difference between power & lethality. A violent felon can be hit center mass by a powerful round & still fight(ie: kill good guys) before they expire(or stop). Author & legal use of force expert; Massad Ayoob made the same point to in a few gun press articles. As discussed at length many many times on TFL & other gun forums, a solid hit to the "tactical T zone"(the area around the nose/eyes) will drop most subjects but you(the armed citizen or armed professional) should carry enough gun & be able to quickly aim/fire at a subject. To me, there's no point in a violent felon to soak up 10-20 hits from a .25acp or a .380acp from a license holder. CF |
April 25, 2013, 06:13 AM | #17 | |
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April 25, 2013, 08:32 AM | #18 |
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But I thought the 40 cal was supposed to be a 1 shot stop 100% of the time? I guess we better buy all the LEO's in this country new firearms in 10MM or something bigger!
As has been said, handguns are not reliable man stoppers. You will always have situations where because someone is in an altered state(due to drugs) they take an extreme amount of punishment before going down. I am not sure even had the officers been using M-4 style carbines it would have made much of a difference. The sad truth of the matter is below a 30 caliber rifle round of some sort you are not likely to get a "one shot stop" unless you get a head shot or maybe a shot directly to the heart. Follow up shots may be needed and shots to non vital areas may be ineffective.
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April 25, 2013, 09:46 AM | #19 |
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Too many people get their idea of reality from TV. People don't fly 4ft in the air and die when they are shot by the "good guy". Their is only a couple of small spots on human anatomy that will instantly kill a person which would be a pretty lucky shot on the fly.
I do also wonder about some police gun tactics now days, sending out rds, dropping clips and sending out more rounds. I know they get free ammo but after reading about many law enforcement "exchanges" it really makes me wonder. |
April 25, 2013, 09:52 AM | #20 |
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So the real point of this is how valuable the follow up shots are. Consistency with center mass and don't quit shooting until the threat is down are some things I think about when I go to the range.
Or are we talking about good rounds to carry and how many to bring? Or is this about size of the gun? |
April 25, 2013, 10:13 AM | #21 | ||
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April 25, 2013, 10:16 AM | #22 | |
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April 25, 2013, 11:02 AM | #23 |
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When police officers carried revolvers, dump pouches for ammo, and New York reloads, the awareness of shot placement's importance received greater attention and more training. But at that time a great many LEO's had military experience and/or had grown up with firearms.
No, I'm not saying they should go back to revolvers (though at my age it's tempting to say so). But what I keep reading in posts from police officers is that training has been reduced, opportunities for practice have diminished, and the number of cops with previous weapons experience is way down. Sounds to me like a recipe for unrealistic expectations and spray-and-pray shootings of the kind we've heard about where officers fire forty rounds and hit their target seven times. I'm not, repeat, NOT blaming the LEO's. I admire tremendously the job they do in damn near impossible situations. But it sounds as if too often they're handicapped by a system that doesn't support them adequately.
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April 25, 2013, 11:09 AM | #24 | |
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I think it would be very hard to fire a handgun at this rate of fire and do anything other then keep it pointed in the basic direction of the target. But even with a pair of 30 round mags 50 to 60 rounds in 15 seconds sounds stupidly unrealistic to me because situations do not remain unchanging like this for 15 seconds. If all the guy is going to do is hang the gun around the corner and jerk the mags dry as fast as possible then sure, but that isn't really anything more dangerous then a risk of hearing loss. I just don't think unrealistic statements provide much much for an argument. As for the guys being drug free, sure, completely drug free of all but one of the most powerful drugs known to man, adrenaline.
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April 25, 2013, 05:35 PM | #25 | |
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I just keep hearing about cars, homes, buildings, that have 50+ bullet holes in them and less then 5 in the target. Were talking about 1 in 10 or less shots making it to the target. Like you said t easy to hit paper especially at 15yds, even while rapid fire, dropping mags and reloading. Would it be better to take a breath? idono? but it would be interesting to see some stats on shots vs hits from a couple of decades ago before semi autos and rapid fire were so popular. |
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