Purchased cast bullets, what's this ring of wax?

[CoolHandLu]

So I just picked up, on a whim, 500 Cast Bullets - .38 Spl Semi Wad Cutter, made by Proofmark here in VA. Here's a pic:

http://www.proofmarkbullets.com/imag...57_158_swc.jpg

The bullet is almost exactly similar to bullet no. 358665 on pg. 158 of Lyman's Pistol and Revolver Handbook. The bullet has this ring of wax that i'm sorta freaked out about. What's the point of the wax, and where do I crimp (just at the cannelure, above the ring of wax, I would guess). Will this bullet wax gunk up my barrel, or my casings?

Finally, do you think I can use the OAL guide on that page (1.445) as a guide?

Thanks!
Brian

[shepherddogs]

The wax is bullet lubricant. It is to reduce leading in the barrel. Yes it will probably burn a little dirty, but nothing a bronze brush and a little Hoppes #9 can't remove easily. I shoot almost exclusively cast lead handgun bullets. They are much cheaper to shoot and I find them to be more accurate also.

[Ozzieman]

Don’t worry about the wax ring. It will do just the opposite.
It’s there to lube the bullet and will lesson the amount of lead the barrel picks up.
The cannelure is where you want to crimp the case.
Most lube is made up from different materials and can include bees wax.
Also since the photo shows that the ring is full with no gaps, if the ones you purchased are the same it also shows a better made bullet.
Since bullets are too large when they come out of the mold they need to go through a final process of sizing to the correct diameter. The lube is injected into the ring as the bullet goes through a sizing ring.

[Semper Paratus]

Cool
The red ring of "wax" is bullet lube. Without it just a few rounds would leave so much lead in your barrel that you would have a heck of a time cleaning it. The lube will cause the lead bullets to smoke a bit more than jacketed bullets and sometimes has a bit of a funky smell but it is a must have unless you lube with liquid alox. You adjust the seating die IAW the directions priovided by the die manufacturer to the point the case mouth is centered up on the crimping groove. That is the groove just above lube groove which has the red lube in it. From there you set up your crimping die, again like the manufacturer says and load. If you have been loading jacketed bullets you are a far luckier son than I am if you can leave the seating and crimp dies where they were for jacketed bullets.

BTW the bullet lube comes in a variety of different colors from different casters including orange green light blue dark blue gray black tan brown and of course the red.

[CoolHandLu]

Goodness, this forum ROCKS! Thanks so much for the kind replies - I'm keeping my fingers crossed, as indeed I have been exclusively loading FMJ. So maybe I'll luck out and the crimp will be perfectly placed for this bullet (but prob. not!).
Thanks again - I'm gonna load er up and see how this goes!
Brian

[HOGGHEAD]

My eyes are not as good as they used to be. Is that the cannelure just above your ring of lube?? If it is then I would not crimp the bullet at the cannelure. I would seat that bullet a bit deeper and roll the crimp up under the ledge(just above the cannelure). Just my opinion, but I think that cannelure is a bit short. Tom.

[Sevens]

CoolHandLu-- two welcomes for you: First, to this forum. Secondly, to the wonderful world of cast lead bullets!

And please take this in the spirit that it's intended-- but if you are so unfamiliar to cast lead bullets that you don't recognize a ring of lube and it's purpose, I would say that it will serve you well to learn MORE about cast bullets so that you can experience all the best that they have to offer.

IMO, the best thing about cast bullets is that they offer quite a bit of fun, accuracy and utility at a fraction of the price of factory produced jacketed bullets. You won't often want to push them as fast as jacketed bullets, and you may experience a little more difficulty in finding available load data as compared to jacketed bullets.

They also will require a little more cleaning in the bore of your barrel. A good rule of thumb that most folks follow is also to not shoot jacketed bullets through your handgun immediately after shooting cast bullets until you've scrubbed the bore.

Another thing you'll find in the world of cast is that quality can vary tremendously across the board. If you don't have much luck with a box of bullets, try someone else's next time. Also, some handguns just prefer some more than others. A lot of trial and error is involved.

I have found that when I find a bullet and a load combo that my gun likes, I can go to the bench and make a zillion of them and I have a low-cost, great performing line of ammo that I can turn out whenever I want them. They'll do exactly what I want every time and it cuts the cost of reloading by as much as 30-50% over using more expensive jacketed bullets.

Run some searches in this forum with the subject of "cast" or "cast bullets" and you'll find more discussion and information than you can handle.

[SL1]

Hogghead wrote:

My eyes are not as good as they used to be. Is that the cannelure just above your ring of lube?? If it is then I would not crimp the bullet at the cannelure. I would seat that bullet a bit deeper and roll the crimp up under the ledge(just above the cannelure). Just my opinion, but I think that cannelure is a bit short.

The crimp groove ("cannelure") looks normal to me. I would use it to crimp, rather than follow Hogghead's advice to seat the bullet deeper and [I think he means] crimp on the front of the first driving band. I get better accuracy if I seat my bullets so that a little of the full-diameter section in sitting in the chamber throat when fired. I even seat full-wadcutters out about 0.1" (and use a taper crimp) instead of seating them flush with the case mouth, as they were intended to be loaded.

SL1

[HOGGHEAD]

Actually I agree with you on the taper crimp. And I would actually taper it in right behind that driving band. I would tuck it into the ledge on the base side of the band. I just thought the cannelure looks a little short. But as I said I do not see as good as I used to, and the picture he posted is a bit out of focus for me. Tom.

[CoolHandLu]

Thanks Sevens, Hogghead and SL1! I'm going to hold off loading these babies - I think I'll finish up my .38 bullets, then move to 9mm jacketed (I'm expecting an order to come in on some bullets/casings any day now). After that, I think I'll be ready for these cast babies.

Hogghead and SL1 - could one of you please repeat your suggestion on the taper crimp behind the driving band. Again - I'm a newbie. Could you dumb it down just a bit - what's a driving band? I think you're suggesting I taper crimp this bullet ABOVE the cannelure, right?
Thanks!

[OldShooter]

Since you guys are so helpful, I'll jump in too. I'm fairly new to reloading, have loaded a small number of fmj and they shot okay. On a whim at the new local Cabellas, I bought a box of 500 lead SWC 200 g bullets. They have one groove with green wax and no cannelure. They are from Oregon Trail. What would you recommend for seating and crimping?

[HOGGHEAD]

There are basically two types of crimps. A roll crimp and a taper crimp. The words correctly describe how the crimp looks. The roll crimp rolls the end of the case into the lead bullet, while the taper crimp puts a taper(the opposite of your belling die) on the end of the brass and gently pushes the case into the lead to hold the bullet.

IMO I use a taper crimp for light loads, and single shot rifles(or no crimp at all). I use the roll crimp for heavy loads and lever action rifles. The taper crimp gives longer case life and more accuracy(IMO). The roll crimp can cause higher pressure(sometimes), and inconsistent(sometimes) pressure if not done right. Case length is more critical in roll crimps.

You should buy the Lyman cast bullet book and read it from cover to cover-twice.

Old Shooter you need to tell us what cartridge you are shooting. You said 45 caliber, but you did not list the cartridge. A 200 grain bullet is the right size for a 45 ACP. but you would seat the bullet differently if you were loading for a 45 Colt revolver. Too many variables that you did not list to give any suggestions. Tom.

[Sevens]

Your loading dies will typically give the right type of crimp for you depending on caliber. If it's commonly a pistol round (.40, 9mm, .45, etc), it will give you a taper crimp. If it's commonly a rimmed revolver round (.357, .44, etc) than the seating die will give you a roll crimp. How much crimp depends on how far the seating die body itself is screwed down in to the press.

Semi-auto pistol rounds shouldn't be roll crimped because they headspace on the case mouth. You need that case mouth to put the round where it belongs in the chamber. Rimmed revolver rounds headspace on the case rim. Roll crimping is important for revolver rounds to prevent them from lurching forward under recoil.

[OldShooter]

Sorry I wasn't clear. It's .45 ACP I am reloading. I'll look for the Lyman cast bullet manual.

Thanks.

[SL1]

A taper crimp is also useful for LIGHT TARGET LOADS in a revolver, because it can aid accuracy. In light loads it is sufficient to prevent bullets from moving forward under recoil and blocking cylinder rotation. For medium to heavy revolver loads, a roll crimp in a cannelure or crimping groove IS necessary.

Normally ,when applying a taper crimp, I position the case mount so that it is NOT over a groove, so that it presses slightly into the bullet metal. It sounds like Hogghead is saying something a little different. I think he is saying to put the case mouth so that it is not quite far enough forward to completely cover the crimping groove, and then use a taper crimp to slightly bend the case into the groove. I don't understand what benefit he is expecting from this, except that he thinks the groove is shallow. But, it looks fine to me. I think it would be best to use a roll-crimp adjusted so that the end of the case ends-up in the deepest part of the groove, just touching the bullet metal at the smallest diameter of the groove. The shallower the groove, the lighter this roll crimp will be. But it will be more secure than the taper crimp, and give mre consistent powder burn than a taper crimp against mostly air (until the bullet jumps forward).

SL1

[CoolHandLu]

One of the issues I'm having here is that I use a Dillon Square Deal B progressive press, and they use only Dillon dies. So when I order a 9mm set of dies, that's what I get - I have no idea if station three (the crimping station, which follows the seating station) is a taper or a crimp die. It's whatever Dillon sent me. Now, if I had bought a 550, I'd have any choice of dies. I'm still struggling with the nomenclature here and still trying to figure out if the difference between a taper and a roll crimp is an issue of LOCATION of the crimp, or is it a function of how the mouth of the case is crimped, or both. I think, in general, revolvers should use roll crimps and automatic pistols - where the cartridges are rimless, right? - use only taper crimps. BUt I'm still trying to figure out why.
Going to call up Dillon and see what they have to say. Sorry, but you can imagine how confusing all of this is to a newbie. My head is swirling with terms like taper crimp, roll crimp, cannelure, headspace, just to name a few.
Thanks!
Brian

[SL1]

Coolhandlu,

The reason that a taper crimp is necessary on rimless pistol cartridges is that they "headspace" on the case mouth. That is, the cartridge goes as far into the chamber as it can until the case mouth stops at a sharp reduction in the chamber diameter (end of chamber, beginning of throat). If you use a roll crimp on such a cartridge, it will go into the chamber too far. You might get a misfire because the firing pin is not long enough to reach the primer with the case that far forward, or it might fire with the case mouth wedged against the bullet and create higher pressure.

With a rimmed cartridge holding the case on the rim surface you can do whatever you please with the case mouth with respect to chambering. But, to withstand recoil forces on cartidges in magazines or revolver cylinders, you need a good roll crimp. Note that revolver recoil pushes on the rim and tends to pull the bullet out of the case, while tubular magazines recoil pushes on the bullets and tends to drive them further into the case. Recoil on bullets in stacked magazines tends to push bullets back into cases. For most auto-laoding pistol cartridges, a taper crimp is good-enough for handling the recoil. For really powerful hunting rifles (e.g., 375 Ruger and above) recoil can set bullets farther into cases in the cartridges in the magazine, and they too must be roll crimped.

For your pistol rounds, Dillon probably sent you a taper crimp for the 9mm and a roll crimp for the .357 Mag. because that is standard use.

SL1

[CoolHandLu]

SL1 - omg that was the BEST, most COGENT, most COMPLETE explanation of crimping and headspace - really, everything I've been trying to get my hands around. The concepts really aren't that difficult in and of themselves, individually. It's just a little overwhelming taken as a whole. Even the Lyman manuals don't really break it down - they refer to "headspace" quite a bit, but never define it.
I'm expecting my 9mm bullets and casings to come in any day now, so I'm pretty psyched to start loading up for my new caliber. Thanks again for all the help!
Brian