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January 31, 2012, 06:43 PM | #26 |
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The temptation of vigilantism
A number of years ago, there was a man in New York City who used the subway and traveled around in places where he was very likely to be mugged. He shot several young men that tried to rob him. If I remember it right, he was convicted of vigilantism and murder because it was said he was putting himself in a position to be robbed and wanted to shoot these criminals! Many people thought this was not right for him to be convicted because he was defending his right to travel anywhere and defend himself! There is a fine line here on this issue and if you have ever been robbed at gunpoint or by someone with a knife, you are kidding yourself if you think you weren't in danger of losing your life!
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January 31, 2012, 06:44 PM | #27 |
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Well, being Buddhist I have no reason to try and kill someone for breaking into a house or stealing something/destruction of property. Objects mean little.
Life and Death on the other hand means a lot, and shooting someone for assaulting my neighbor seems a bit lopsided. Slopemeno brought up a good point, be a good witness. Skans brought up another, confronting the person, if their attention goes to you and you defend yourself, that seems fine. Being a "Hero" like Joe Horn is ridiculous in my eyes, he seems like he was after the chance to kill someone, for Burglary no less. Not knowing a situation, physically interfering without first calling the police and trying to deescalate the situation is stupid. Making a citizens arrest is an option, but good luck.
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January 31, 2012, 07:56 PM | #28 | |
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January 31, 2012, 08:06 PM | #29 | |
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[2] These sorts of "...there was a man...if I remember it right..." statements are worthless and a waste of time without some documentation. [3] And as Don points out, if you're thinking of Bernie Goetz, who was called the "Subway Vigilante" in the press, you've got it all wrong. |
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January 31, 2012, 08:30 PM | #30 |
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The story was covered pretty heavy by the National media at the time. If I recall, didn't Goetz shoot 4 men, one of them twice? I think he had a 5 shot S&W .38 and after shooting each MUGGER once, he turned to one and stated something to the effect of "You don't look too bad... here's another" BANG! I think at least one of them had a screwdriver and they WERE intent on hurting / robbing him. I think the crime rate DROP in NYC in the following weeks, prior to Police catching Goetz, as there was speculation of a DEATH WISH type of crime fighter roaming the streets? I could be wrong, as it was over 25 years ago.
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January 31, 2012, 08:37 PM | #31 | |
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In any case, Goetz is off topic. This thread is about coming to the defense of another person. Let's get back on track. |
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January 31, 2012, 09:35 PM | #32 |
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Yes, it depends on the state. If you're in Texas, look at Texas Penal Code 9.43.
And of course, as always, there are variables. Is there only one intruder? Is your neighbor HOME? Is your neighbor a couple of college girls? A combat vet with 38 loaded guns on the wall? A 90 year old lady living alone? You would have to a little soul-searching in deciding what to do if it was a lone woman, elderly, etc. and you saw somebody breaking in a window. I would probably approach with a firm "get away from that window! NOW!" and my gun drawn and pointed, or ready to quick-draw and fire. Or maybe I would have a shotgun. But again, as with so many of these hypothetical scenarios, it just depends. |
January 31, 2012, 10:20 PM | #33 | |
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1. The neighbor must be in lawful possession of the property. 2. The property must be land or tangible, movable property. 3. You must reasonably believe that deadly force is immediately necessary to stop the interference with the property. 4. The other person has no claim of right to the property. 5. The crime being prevented is arson, burglarly, robbery, theft during nighttime or criminal mischief during nightime. 6. You must reasonably believe the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by other means OR using less force would expose you to substantial risk of death or serious injury. When those conditions are met, THEN you just need to meet all the conditions in Sec. 9.43 and it is a good shoot. |
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January 31, 2012, 10:46 PM | #34 |
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Good post, Bart.
Some folks seem to think that Castle Doctrine laws are some kind of "get out of jail free" card. They are not. Every Castle Doctrine, and every law permitting the use of force in self defense, includes a laundry list of conditions that need to be satisfied for their protections to apply. If there's any dispute about whether those conditions have been satisfied, you'll be in court. |
January 31, 2012, 11:23 PM | #35 | |||
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January 31, 2012, 11:29 PM | #36 | |
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Joe Horn's actions were justifed based on a claim of self defense--NOT defense of property. He was backed up in that claim by a police officer who witnessed the shooting.
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January 31, 2012, 11:48 PM | #37 | |
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I don't know the answer to your specific question, but it bugs the crap out of me when people toss around the word "vigilante" without understanding it's meaning. It's become a news media jargonese term. Law abiding gun owners don't use it---at least not when it applies to lawful acts. Vigilantes are the ones who circumnavigate the law. And lawful intervention does not equate to vigilantiism. Now that I feel better for getting that off my chest, I don't personally know how the law is written iin your state, but if you ask yourself the question: Is anyone's life in immediate danger, then maybe you could answer your own question. And if you answer another question: Would it be prudent to get the police rolling ASAP, before I consider opening fire?, then that might help, also. Believe it or not, there could be a valid reason for someone trying to open a window that you wouldn't be aware of watching through your rifle scope. Maybe "The police are on the way, why are you trying to enter my neighbor's house through a window?" would help solve the problem and save an awful lot of headache. Call the Cops. Then call your neighbor and let them know about the problem. Think "gun" last--it's still there as an option. |
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January 31, 2012, 11:55 PM | #38 |
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I can understand the idea though. This is a moral issue. You see something that sounds your internal alarm. It doesn't involve you personally per se but will you just stand by and to allow "this" to happen to "them".
Added : Get to know your neighbors. Talk to one another. Exchange #'s. You don't have to like one another.
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February 1, 2012, 07:17 AM | #39 |
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Terminology
You opened with the term "vigilantism." Vigilantism is not self defense or the defense of another, it is the usurption of governmental power by investigating, capturing and punishing the responsible party without authorization to do so. This is mob justice such as the widespread lynchings of blacks in an earlier era.
In NYS, one may only use deadly force in a property oriented crime to prevent the arson of an occupied dwelling. Any use of deadly force to prevent a property crime such as burglary or auto theft (not carjacking) will land you in jail, wipe out your net worth and permenantly cost you the privilege or right to own firearms. Our justice system is far from perfect. Some get away with murder while innocents are sometimes convicted in a legitimate self defense situation.
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February 1, 2012, 11:17 AM | #40 |
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Thanks, Bart, Fiddletown and John - that was my point, Grant.
Horn's case was not the way you portrayed it.
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February 1, 2012, 12:06 PM | #41 |
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Sorry to be so late in this thread, but I've been busy lately.
Going through the posts somewhat quickly, I didn't see that anyone has mentioned legitimate reasons for breaking a window: being locked out, or going to the opposite side of a house from a fire to gain access for a rescue attempt. This comes back to the same issue that often comes up in questioning whether a third party should intervene with gunfire: Do we always know exactly what is going on? If the answer is even a little bit no, we probably shouldn't do anything irreversible like letting fly with bullets. |
February 1, 2012, 01:33 PM | #42 |
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Assume you believe that your neighbor is in danger- the scenario is unimportant.
"Assume" could well be the most dangerous word in the vocabulary of the armed citizen...
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February 1, 2012, 02:38 PM | #43 |
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I agree with all the posts on the matter of Joe Horn.
But there's nothing inaccurate in my first post, just the story in a nutshell. |
February 1, 2012, 03:40 PM | #44 | |
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NY Penal Code: 35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and in defense of a person in the course of burglary. 1. Any person may use physical force upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a crime involving damage to premises. Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and may use deadly physical force if he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson. 2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a criminal trespass upon such premises. Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and may use deadly physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in subdivision three. 3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary. |
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February 1, 2012, 04:16 PM | #45 |
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And remember. It's not just a matter of what the statutes say. It's also a matter of how they're applied by the courts.
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February 1, 2012, 05:16 PM | #46 |
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If an elderly person or a child or anyone who appears to be mentally/physically incapacitated is being attacked... Attackers are going down. Because these victims are apparently incapable of defending themselves or fflee from the scene, and even punches and kicks may be fatal to them, thus justifying the use of force upon any attackers/muggers preying upon them.
Fight between two people on the street of equal physical stature... Leave them alone, but call police if something dangerous is seen, such as combatants brandishing weapons. |
February 1, 2012, 05:28 PM | #47 |
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It's all situational,,,
I would have to do something,,,
Most likely I would simply dial 911 and make a lot of noise. I do not have the Hero gene,,, But I can't simply walk away either. I did that once back in my wild and crazy youth,,, I saw two GI's smacking a Korean "business girl" around,,, The very next day I saw her again all bruised and battered to heck. Let's just say I was profoundly ashamed of myself. I don't want to be a sheepdog,,, I don't think I would dive in shooting,,, But I would be compelled to do something,,, Even if all I could do was honk a horn and call 911. There is an old quotation/statement/cliche that goes something like this: All that is necessary for evil to triumph,,, Is for good men to do nothing. I may not do much,,, But doing nothing (again) is not an option. Aarond .
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February 1, 2012, 05:31 PM | #48 | |
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Added : I feel ya Mr.Graham.
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February 1, 2012, 06:59 PM | #49 |
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Might remind folks that good ol' blood lust and suggesting illegal actions are not a path to follow here.
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February 1, 2012, 07:01 PM | #50 | |
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