40 s&w load with 800x powder..casing looks too full

FullCry · March 12, 2010, 08:32 PM

I came across a 40 s&w load requiring 7.0 grs 800x. I'm using a Lee Turret press so I have to measure the powder untl I come up with the right bushing. I have a Hornady triple beam scale and it seems to be accurate..I have used it for years on my shotshell universal charge bar. The charge I came up with is 6.8 grains and it throws it consistently but the casing looks three quarters full. This powder seems might fluffy but I'm wondering if anyone thinks there may be a problem and I need advice from some of you with experience with this powder and pistol loads. I'm just trying to be very careful. Thanks for any replies, FullCry

Brian Pfleuger · March 12, 2010, 08:55 PM

What bullet are you using?

The Lyman 49th lists loads of 800x as 7.4 max for Sierra 180gr JHP up to 8.4gr max for Sierra 150gr JHP. It does not indicate that any of those loads are compressed.

FullCry · March 12, 2010, 09:02 PM

So your saying my powder scale is wrong or the powder is old? If you think my scale is wrong a friend has another to compare it to. If not what is your point? Thanks.

Brian Pfleuger · March 12, 2010, 09:14 PM

No, I'm just saying that the loads are not listed as compressed.

I have no way of knowing if they would be compressed based on your description.

You can measure the depth of the powder, do a little math to figure out how much bullet is in the case and easily determine if your load would be compressed.

The easiest solution would probably be to weigh a few items on your scale that are of known weight, like bullets or, better yet, a check weight. The scale will (basically) either be right or wrong, it's not going to be right sometimes and wrong others.

FullCry · March 13, 2010, 12:32 AM

Ok, gotcha. I didn't use my mike on the powder and casing but after looking closer I think the bullet might be close but not compressing the powder. I'll take my mic to it and the bullet and check. In the mean while I found another load where the powder isn't near as close. I also double checked my scale and it is on. Thanks for your help.

Shoney · March 13, 2010, 12:49 AM

Even if you have a full load of 800X, but do not compress it, you will not have enough pressure developed to injure your weapon. That is one of the great qualities of 800X, you can push near to compressed, but not get into dangerous pressures.

The highest pressures listed with 800X are less than 55-65% of the max pressure the cartridge can safely develop with other powders. Since I have never tried to compress a load with 800X, I have no idea what will happen with the pressures. They might spike into the danger zone or not.

You might PM Clark, if he doesn't jump in, as he has done a lot of experimenting with overloading.

FullCry · March 13, 2010, 01:20 AM

Thanks Shoney, I didn't even pay attention to the pressure because I am using the starting load. I don't think the powder will be compressed but will measure.

Brian Pfleuger · March 13, 2010, 11:18 AM

Yes, Clark has done some interesting tests with 800x and the 40SW. I'm sure that you're fine if your scale checks out, you're following published load data and especially if you're starting low and working up.

jepp2 · March 13, 2010, 09:28 PM

The Nosler manual (your other thread) lists load density (volume) as well as the most accurate load for each powder listed. But they don't have 800-X for the 40 S&W.

Clark · March 14, 2010, 02:00 AM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

My Glock 22 40S&W had feed ramp intrusion to .235".
40sw brass has a web .180" thick.
This left .055" of thin unsuported case wall.
With handloads of only 30% extra powder over max published, I was getting bulged cases.

So I welded up the feed ramp.

Then I re cut the chamber and feed ramp to give support at .180"

800X IMR load [current web site]: "Hi-Shor"800-X 6.3 gr. 925 fps, 2610
psi, 4" barrel, 1.125" OAL, Speer 200 gr. FMJ

12.5 gr. and more requires double compression, 15.5 gr. the OAL springs
out to 1.171", 15.5 gr. is ok, intense recoil +146% additional extra powder over max puglished.

To get that much powder to fit I had to compress the powder in the case, add more powder, compress the powder, and add more powder, and compress, and then seat the bullet.

15.5 gr 800X 200 gr is the max published load for 44 magnum, but the 44 mag has much more case volume than the 40sw, so I am getting much more pressure than the 44 mag..

Shoney · March 14, 2010, 04:24 PM

Clark

Out of curiosity, have you chronographed any of the loads?

What will it do to the weapon with several firings?

Clark · March 15, 2010, 02:12 AM

It will wear out my hand.
There is no way to fit recoil springs adequate for those loads inside a G22.

The worst thing I ever did was in May 2000, when I was shooting 460 Rowland loads in a 20 ounce 45acp with stock springs. I got a flinch of punching my right shoulder forward with every shot, with every handgun.

The G22 does not kick as hard as the 45 did, but it still makes the shooting hand hurt for a long time.

FullCry · March 15, 2010, 11:26 AM

That's cool, and you need some gloves. Good machine work you did there to.

Nevmavrick · March 15, 2010, 04:02 PM

In a .40, 800X is a slow-burning powder, which basically means that it takes up more room in the case. It's a good idea to check your scale from time to time, like once a month, but only because it's EZ.
800X isn't known for "spiking", that's something the faster-burning powders do, but seating depth is more important...keep an eye on it. You're doing right, starting down a bit, and watching.
IOW- no, a full case, or a little compression isn't a problem.
Have fun,
Gene

FullCry · March 15, 2010, 11:36 PM

Thanks everybody for the help. Clark, I'd like to watch YOU, shoot that 40 load.Now that would be fun.

Powderman · March 16, 2010, 12:08 AM

Clark, I live in WA State too, on the west side of the mountains. I'd like to meet you at the range to watch those loads, and to get some chrono figures. It must be impressive!

I know of a couple of ranges that are not too far away--out door at that. Think we can do this?

N.H. Yankee · March 17, 2010, 03:36 PM

I loaded some 155gr XTP with 7.9 grains 800x, 1.130 oal and all I can say is recoil was snappy and the report was a loud crack. I then fired some factory Hornady 155gr xtp and the recoil was less as was the report. My IMR loading booklet says 8.8gr max for 150gr and 7.2 gr max for 180gr. The primers were no different than the factory Hornady ammo so no signs of pressure, but they sure felt and sounded hot. I shot these from a XD(m) 40cal

bigD01 · March 19, 2010, 03:21 PM

I like 6.8 gr. of 800x behind a 180 gr. Hornady XTP projectile. I use a Hornady LnL powder measure, checking every 3rd load. Flake powder does'nt dispense charges the same every time. This is a snappy, accurate load. not compressed. I use Federal cases trimmed to 0.845" OAL 1.035"

March 12, 2010, 08:32 PM	#1
FullCry Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Posts: 155	40 s&w load with 800x powder..casing looks too full I came across a 40 s&w load requiring 7.0 grs 800x. I'm using a Lee Turret press so I have to measure the powder untl I come up with the right bushing. I have a Hornady triple beam scale and it seems to be accurate..I have used it for years on my shotshell universal charge bar. The charge I came up with is 6.8 grains and it throws it consistently but the casing looks three quarters full. This powder seems might fluffy but I'm wondering if anyone thinks there may be a problem and I need advice from some of you with experience with this powder and pistol loads. I'm just trying to be very careful. Thanks for any replies, FullCry

March 12, 2010, 08:55 PM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	What bullet are you using? The Lyman 49th lists loads of 800x as 7.4 max for Sierra 180gr JHP up to 8.4gr max for Sierra 150gr JHP. It does not indicate that any of those loads are compressed. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

March 12, 2010, 09:14 PM	#4
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	No, I'm just saying that the loads are not listed as compressed. I have no way of knowing if they would be compressed based on your description. You can measure the depth of the powder, do a little math to figure out how much bullet is in the case and easily determine if your load would be compressed. The easiest solution would probably be to weigh a few items on your scale that are of known weight, like bullets or, better yet, a check weight. The scale will (basically) either be right or wrong, it's not going to be right sometimes and wrong others. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

March 13, 2010, 12:49 AM	#6
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	Even if you have a full load of 800X, but do not compress it, you will not have enough pressure developed to injure your weapon. That is one of the great qualities of 800X, you can push near to compressed, but not get into dangerous pressures. The highest pressures listed with 800X are less than 55-65% of the max pressure the cartridge can safely develop with other powders. Since I have never tried to compress a load with 800X, I have no idea what will happen with the pressures. They might spike into the danger zone or not. You might PM Clark, if he doesn't jump in, as he has done a lot of experimenting with overloading. __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

March 13, 2010, 11:18 AM	#8
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Yes, Clark has done some interesting tests with 800x and the 40SW. I'm sure that you're fine if your scale checks out, you're following published load data and especially if you're starting low and working up. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

March 12, 2010, 09:02 PM	#3
FullCry Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Posts: 155	So your saying my powder scale is wrong or the powder is old? If you think my scale is wrong a friend has another to compare it to. If not what is your point? Thanks.

March 13, 2010, 12:32 AM	#5
FullCry Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Posts: 155	Ok, gotcha. I didn't use my mike on the powder and casing but after looking closer I think the bullet might be close but not compressing the powder. I'll take my mic to it and the bullet and check. In the mean while I found another load where the powder isn't near as close. I also double checked my scale and it is on. Thanks for your help.

March 13, 2010, 01:20 AM	#7
FullCry Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Posts: 155	Thanks Shoney, I didn't even pay attention to the pressure because I am using the starting load. I don't think the powder will be compressed but will measure.

March 13, 2010, 09:28 PM	#9
jepp2 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 1,476	The Nosler manual (your other thread) lists load density (volume) as well as the most accurate load for each powder listed. But they don't have 800-X for the 40 S&W.

March 14, 2010, 04:24 PM	#11
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	Clark Out of curiosity, have you chronographed any of the loads? What will it do to the weapon with several firings? __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

March 15, 2010, 02:12 AM	#12
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	It will wear out my hand. There is no way to fit recoil springs adequate for those loads inside a G22. The worst thing I ever did was in May 2000, when I was shooting 460 Rowland loads in a 20 ounce 45acp with stock springs. I got a flinch of punching my right shoulder forward with every shot, with every handgun. The G22 does not kick as hard as the 45 did, but it still makes the shooting hand hurt for a long time.

March 15, 2010, 11:26 AM	#13
FullCry Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Posts: 155	That's cool, and you need some gloves. Good machine work you did there to.

March 15, 2010, 04:02 PM	#14
Nevmavrick Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2010 Location: Sparks, Nevada, near Reno Posts: 183	In a .40, 800X is a slow-burning powder, which basically means that it takes up more room in the case. It's a good idea to check your scale from time to time, like once a month, but only because it's EZ. 800X isn't known for "spiking", that's something the faster-burning powders do, but seating depth is more important...keep an eye on it. You're doing right, starting down a bit, and watching. IOW- no, a full case, or a little compression isn't a problem. Have fun, Gene

March 15, 2010, 11:36 PM	#15
FullCry Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Posts: 155	Thanks everybody for the help. Clark, I'd like to watch YOU, shoot that 40 load.Now that would be fun.

March 16, 2010, 12:08 AM	#16
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Clark, I live in WA State too, on the west side of the mountains. I'd like to meet you at the range to watch those loads, and to get some chrono figures. It must be impressive! I know of a couple of ranges that are not too far away--out door at that. Think we can do this? __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

March 17, 2010, 03:36 PM	#17
N.H. Yankee Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2004 Location: Rural N.H. Posts: 1,586	I loaded some 155gr XTP with 7.9 grains 800x, 1.130 oal and all I can say is recoil was snappy and the report was a loud crack. I then fired some factory Hornady 155gr xtp and the recoil was less as was the report. My IMR loading booklet says 8.8gr max for 150gr and 7.2 gr max for 180gr. The primers were no different than the factory Hornady ammo so no signs of pressure, but they sure felt and sounded hot. I shot these from a XD(m) 40cal __________________ The real danger to America is not abroad but within.. Having an open mind is a good thing, but not so open that your brains fall out! Save America, abort liberalism.

March 19, 2010, 03:21 PM	#18
bigD01 Member Join Date: March 9, 2010 Posts: 46	I like 6.8 gr. of 800x behind a 180 gr. Hornady XTP projectile. I use a Hornady LnL powder measure, checking every 3rd load. Flake powder does'nt dispense charges the same every time. This is a snappy, accurate load. not compressed. I use Federal cases trimmed to 0.845" OAL 1.035"