Using more than one kind of bullet

[Groundhog]

Has anyone considered using a staggered bullet order in their mags? Is this a good or bad idea? My thought was to have the first three rounds be HP, and then start a stagger with ball. My reasoning was this. Most likely, most scenarios would be over with the first few shots and would be best served by HP. But, if you ended up in a protracted fight, the ball could give you some penetration advantage if some cover was being used. The most likely thing I can think of would be having to shoot through a car window or door.

Now, before anyone gets their panties in a wad, lets set some ground rules here.

1. There is no "oh, you should have avoided the situation". OK, OK! DUH! All the common sense stuff applied and failed. You now find yourself in a shoot out. If you simply can't envision this remote eventuality, please don't bother to reply with various pontifications as to why that's more righteous. Just start your own thread somewhere.

2. This is basically a question from someone who has no experience. I'm not suggesting Rambo tactics. I am asking a question. I'd just like impartial advice and suggestions as to if this is a good, bad, or indifferent idea and why you think so.

[kcshooter]

I do the same thing. All Hydroshocks in the first mag, then HP and JRN staggered in the 2 reloads. My thoughts were the same, maybe I need to shoot thru something. Never heard a really good reason not to, but never heard it was a great idea either. I'm looking forward to the responses.

[CraigJS]

I do it with my P3AT Kel Tec. First round is Corbon 90 JHP, then ball,then JHP.
.380's are down on power so thats why I alternate. In my 9's it's 124 +P GD's only. BUT nothing goes into any of my carry pieces unless 100% reliable..
Be safe..

[AK103K]

I'm kind of partial to it myself.

[mrelijahgardner]

Mixing up rounds can affect your accuracy. Self defense JHPs are loaded at a higher pressure than the FMJs. Are you going to remember "Ok I shot 3 rounds so now I'm onto the next kind"

Just My Two cents. I know someone else will have a different opinion.

[odsixer]

Good idea, does anyone have any penetration data on 230gr ball vs 185 hydras or whatever?

[buzz_knox]

This is an old idea but not recommended for the reason stated above: you will have absolutely no idea how many rounds were fired and which round is next. If the point of aim/point of impact is different (and many HPs and FMJs have differences), a good shot with an HP could go bad with a FMJ.

A better alternative is to get an HP with barrier penetration capability.

[Groundhog]

Self defense JHPs are loaded at a higher pressure than the FMJs.

Does that hold true if you are not using +P ammo? I have 147gr ball and HP fired through my Sprinfield XD9 and haven't been able to 'feel' a difference. I have not done much target practice with it as the HP is expensive, but I did test it.

Are you going to remember "Ok I shot 3 rounds so now I'm onto the next kind"

I wasn't thinking along those lines. It was more like you would be pumping out a lot of rounds to get the desired effect. I'm not much for limited Vickers. Given that, would it matter?

A better alternative is to get an HP with barrier penetration capability.

Like what? I haven't seen anything like that advertised or on the shelf at my shops. Sounds like a good way to go though. I use Speer Gold Dot for my HP rounds but it says nothing about being able to penetrate barriers.

Excellent comments and questions. Keep them coming!

[Bruxley]

These are those Enhanced penatration rounds....expensive but these specilized ammos always are......I carry the Fang Face, the ones in the link are the Enhanced Penatration Rounds.

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgist...d=3641967.5088

Please train on these prior to deploying. These have unusual and amazing characteristics. Seriously.....spend the money to know this ammo or please stick to what you already know.

[CWL]

Cocktail loading, not that useful for a variety of reasons. Main arguement is that you will not be able to keep track of which round is which if you are ever in a SD/firefight situation. I have experienced this myself and can attest to this. There are alot of discussion threads if you do a search.

Bruxley, um, here's the Box o' Truth testing of your $1.85/round Extreme Shock Fang Face ammo...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

[Bruxley]

Thanks for the link. Interesting. However the tester made some errors about what the rounds are supposed to do.

-Fang face - SUPPOSED to penetrate very well until hitting soft tissue then 'explode' into fragments.....which it did. Penetrated 11 sheets of drywall in 1st test and stayed in tact. 2nd test proved 'explodes' in soft tissue without overpenetration.

-Air freedom round - Admittedly not familiar with this one personally but seemed to perform as it was supped to. It is supposed to penetrate BG and if it then hits solid wall, disintegrate. 1st test it disitigrated from 1st sheet of drywall and 2nd test spent it's self in 1st water jug. Again, I have ZERO experience w/ these.

I have used the fang face and those mamas are wicked penetrators and somehow are able to fly apart like a mini frag nade in bodies. The link seemed to show that. The tester however seemed to think that the fang face was supposed to disitegrate in the drywall. These mamas are for shooting opfor THOUGH thier cover without shooting THROUGH them.

[rezmedic54]

Bruxley is right the rounds worked as advertised. I have done all the demo with these are they are to the best of my knowledge do just what they say they will. It's all I carry. The EPR rounds are what they call smart rounds they are aimed more to the street cop being able to penetrate car doors and glass staying intact till hitting soft tissue.

[Musketeer]

Mixing rounds in a magazine is one of those things that seems to sound like it is a practice "the pros use" but is far from it in my opinion. I expect it has shown up in some movie... The only times I see it as viable in a SD handgun is when camping/hiking in snake country. In such a situation having the first roudn or two be snake shot makes lots of sense.

I can see bringing two types of ammo to the party but bring them in different mags. My 10mm 1911 is loaded with a mag of 135 gr. JHPs at 1600+ fps and then followed up by two mags of 200 gr. XTP JHPs at 1200 fps for real deep penetration (still with some expansion though).

[buzz_knox]

I wasn't thinking along those lines. It was more like you would be pumping out a lot of rounds to get the desired effect. I'm not much for limited Vickers. Given that, would it matter?

You might be pumping out rounds, but you are accountable for every single one of them.

Worst case scenario is you and your significant other are attacked by multiple offenders (quite common these days). You use some (all?) of type X on the first offender, only to discover the other has your loved one around the neck. You go for a sniper shot but start wondering if you are using type Y, which has a significant difference in point of aim/point of impact. No big deal as you've trained for it, but now, you have to wonder, where's my hold? With the correct hold, you nail the bad guy and save the girl. With the wrong hold, you either 1) miss the bad guy and kill the old lady down the street along with yourself and your loved one as the bad guy kills you both or 2) miss the bad guy and kill your loved one with a head shot.

As for barrier penetration, any round which purportes to meet the FBI standards will fall in this category. This includes Gold Dot, Ranger and Golden Saber.

[buzz_knox]

Mixing rounds in a magazine is one of those things that seems to sound like it is a practice "the pros use" but is far from it in my opinion. I expect it has shown up in some movie...

It was used in some shotguns in jungle warfare: mixing buck with slugs to get penetration. It was largely discarded even there. I've never met any "pro" who used it or instructor who recommended it.

[Manedwolf]

.410 birdshot
.410 #000 shot
.410 #000 shot
45 LC +P Cor-Bon
45 LC +P Cor-Bon

And if you guessed that'd be a Taurus "Judge", that'd be correct.

[Jim Watson]

I agree with Buzz.
A high velocity hollowpoint has pretty good penetration in light cover and I don't think hardball would be any advantage vs a car body or frame house wall.

[FLA2760]

I carry A Kel Tec P32 as a BUG. I carry a HP in the chamber and another at the top of the magazine the rest is FMJ. I do this to avoid rimlock and in the 32ACP the FMJ will give me better penetration IMO.

[mlandman]

In a J Frame 340 or similar wheel gun, I have heard it said to put a single 357 under the hammer so you KNOW when the last round is spent.

[mrelijahgardner]

There have been some reasons stated for carrying mixed rounds. For example with a revolver in the woods or out fishing, carrying the first round or two as snake shot, If you didn't want to carry an extra gun.

Does that hold true if you are not using +P ammo? I have 147gr ball and HP fired through my Sprinfield XD9 and haven't been able to 'feel' a difference. I have not done much target practice with it as the HP is expensive, but I did test it.

Even if you are not using +P it is probably still a different bullet that will act differently

It was more like you would be pumping out a lot of rounds to get the desired effect. I'm not much for limited Vickers. Given that, would it matter?

If you were to just blast away your probably not going to be accurate anyway. So mixing up rounds isn't going to change anything.

It would be best to find a good round that you are happy with. My primary carry is a .380 I carry +P JHPs. Some people may worry that it might not provide enough penetration but I'll keep shooting consist shots until the threat is stopped.

[T. O'Heir]

Mixed ammo usually means a mixed POI too. Penetration means nothing if you can't place the shot exactly. In any case, maximum penetration isn't always desirable. Like buzz_knox says, you are responsible for where every round goes. If one goes through a house wall or window and hits somebody, you're guilty of manslaughter at worst. Sued into the Stone Age at least.
"...put a single 357 under the hammer so you KNOW..." You should know exactly how many shots you fire at all times. That'll be one of the questions the police ask you.

[kcshooter]

You should know exactly how many shots you fire at all times

Yeah, but you won't. In a stress situation you won't be able to count. In fact, most of the experts tell you not to waste brainpower trying to at that point. You need to pay attention to too many other things at that point.


Also, I do understand the POI arguement, but chances are you are close enough in an encounter like this that the inch or less difference isn't going to affect the outcome. Most SD situations you aren't going to be able to place the shot precisely enough anyway. Less than an inch of difference at 7-10 yards, maybe 15, isn't going to cause a stray round to go where your muzzle wasn't pointed anyway.

[buzz_knox]

You should know exactly how many shots you fire at all times. That'll be one of the questions the police ask you.

You will have no idea how many rounds you fired. After action reports make clear that you might be aware of the weapon discharging once or twice, but you won't know that you've emptied your Glock 17. If a cop asks you this question, he's fishing for evidence of murder, as the cop will be fully aware that the correct answer to this question is "I've got no idea. Ask the crime scene investigation team."

Also, I do understand the POI arguement, but chances are you are close enough in an encounter like this that the inch or less difference isn't going to affect the outcome. Most SD situations you aren't going to be able to place the shot precisely enough anyway. Less than an inch of difference at 7-10 yards, maybe 15, isn't going to cause a stray round to go where your muzzle wasn't pointed anyway.

Go take a course with Louis Awerbuck. He's the best at explaining why an inch of difference at 7-10 yards can be lethal to you, and getting you to not give up that inch.

You'll place the shots better than you imagined if you train to use your sights. And if you don't use your sights, you'll miss when it matters. You can miss at 3 yards if you don't know what you are doing in terms of body indexing in a retention position, and I watched someone miss a B-27 sized target entirely at 7 yards this weekend because they tried point shooting when sights were called for.

[kcshooter]

Go take a course with Louis Awerbuck. He's the best at explaining why an inch of difference at 7-10 yards can be lethal to you, and getting you to not give up that inch.

You'll place the shots better than you imagined if you train to use your sights. And if you don't use your sights, you'll miss when it matters. You can miss at 3 yards if you don't know what you are doing in terms of body indexing in a retention position, and I watched someone miss a B-27 sized target entirely at 7 yards this weekend because they tried point shooting when sights were called for.

Trust me, I'm an advocate of sights at any distace beyond arms length. (Although one missing a b27 at 7 yards is a bad shot, even small amounts of practice should be able to overcome that one). What I'm saying is I don't think that at these distances, sighted, that the POI will be even a full inch. And if you think most people can keep their shots within an inch of where they want them while defending themselves, you haven't done much research. One of my favorite videos is the one where two cops and 2 bg's unload their guns at each other, and nobody hit anyone.
I've shot my guns staggered at the range before, usually at 15yds or under. The poi fluctuation in my experience is minor at best.

Worst case scenario is you and your significant other are attacked by multiple offenders (quite common these days). You use some (all?) of type X on the first offender, only to discover the other has your loved one around the neck. You go for a sniper shot but start wondering if you are using type Y, which has a significant difference in point of aim/point of impact. No big deal as you've trained for it, but now, you have to wonder, where's my hold? With the correct hold, you nail the bad guy and save the girl. With the wrong hold, you either 1) miss the bad guy and kill the old lady down the street along with yourself and your loved one as the bad guy kills you both or 2) miss the bad guy and kill your loved one with a head shot.

You watch too much TV.

[buzz_knox]

On second thought, this crap isn't worth it.