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November 19, 2008, 06:07 PM | #26 |
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I recognized it also, mostly because TFL and THR have made me much more politically conscience and forced me to examine my beliefs and how they line up with the founders. I have always tended to be a libertarian (probably from reading too much Heinlein as a kid) but have gotten much more so in the last few years. I would sign it and be proud to do so.
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November 19, 2008, 06:37 PM | #27 | |
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November 19, 2008, 07:57 PM | #28 | |
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She's talking about the Coercive/Intolerable Acts compared against the Patriot Act. The Stamp Act or Tea Tax versus the proposals of certain congresscritters to nationalize 401(k)'s or double the capital gains tax. She's talking about the 1774-75 seizure by Cornwallis of local militia cannon, powder and shot versus the 86 FOPA, the 94 AWB and a potential 2009 AWB-II. How did the Colonials respond? Intolerable Acts: They held their meetings in pure spite of the law, passed their own regulations/rules and governed themselves... the Crown be damned. Tea Tax: They maliciously destroyed the entire shipment of the East India Trading Company as protest. Arms Seizure: We all know what happened on April 19th, 1775. And folks... it wasn't about individual muskets or the 1/2 pound of powder in each home. It was about large stores equivalent to the guy who has 100K rounds of ammo and a gross of SKS's in his garage. It was about cannon. It was about implements of war. Basically, it was about the equivalent of class 3 weaponry and assault rifles. How do we respond now? Consider our responses so far. |
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November 19, 2008, 08:44 PM | #29 | |||
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http://www.usconstitution.net/declarsigndata.html What was the second most common profession of signers of the DoI? Merchant, actually wholesalers of imports. Many of the other signers were involved in the trade through stocks. They were getting pinched as domestic supplies, although inferior, became more popular. Quote:
I might be willing to play. Quote:
Last edited by johnwilliamson062; November 19, 2008 at 09:33 PM. |
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November 19, 2008, 09:11 PM | #30 | |
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November 20, 2008, 12:07 AM | #31 |
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I didn't realize that it was the DOI rewritten in modern english usage and I will be honest about it. But it really doesn't matter as I would not sign it today.
The problem with history however is always context when applied to current times. In 1776 the document had meaning, but to use it in 2008 is out of historical context. We are not suffering under anything remotely the same as we did as a colony of England with zero representation in government in 1776. Today our government is elected by us and it was not in 1776.
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November 20, 2008, 12:19 AM | #32 |
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Internationally the American Revolution is often referred to as The Revolution of babies or whiners.
The American Revolution launched long before other revolutions have(condition wise). I still agree that we are currently at a much higher standard of living than in 176, and until that changes there will be no revolution. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; November 21, 2008 at 02:40 PM. |
November 20, 2008, 12:29 AM | #33 |
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Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
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November 20, 2008, 01:07 AM | #34 | |
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Most of the revolutionaries in 1776 were driven by a daydreamer's politics instead of greed. Yes they were upset with certain things not the least of which was having officers quartered in private homes. It wasn't so much the number of officers so lodged but rather the manner in which they acted in those private homes treating the owners as part of their staff of servants. The tax levels might have been low but so were profit margins. For many a 3% tax meant the difference in Monticello or the ghetto. But by far the revolution was a romantic endeavor spurred on by Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" which was ubiqutous in the colonies. Very few colonials had read Locke or Hume but almost all of them could quote the romantic writing and thinking of Paine. It was as much about class envy as anything else but in their case they had reason to envy the upper classes. That's the one thing that stands out as the greatest accomplishment of the revolution. We were given the chance to rise above class distinctions. It isn't easy now but it certainly is possible. It was classical liberalism. It bears little resemblence to modern liberalism. In fact modern conservatism is closer to it. Today the man who wants to "conserve" the values of our past is the one who's trying to hang on to the revolutionary values of days gone by. What we quickly learned was that the new boss was just as corrupt as the old boss. By the time of Andrew Jackson corruption in Washington was set in stone. From the violation of treaties with the Native Americans to land grabs in the Appalachians and beyond the Washington scene was quickly dominated by lobbyists and politicians. Witness the quote of Davey Crockett after his old friend, Andy Jackson, had stabbed him in the back politically and caused him to lose his seat in Congress. He said, "You all can go to hell, I'm going to Texas." And he took much of the old romantic republican spirit with him and it died with him at the Alamo. What we should be concerned about is what follows the mess we have now if we should happen to revolt. The great thing about the American Revolution is that there was a well known plan for a new style of government that was extremely popular in the colonies. If we only have the desire to overthrow a corrupt government we'll quickly disintegrate into a banana republic mold where one revolution follows another with the results always being the same. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss". It might become necessary to overthrow the government some day but that will be the beginning of a very tough time in America. We just can't guarantee a moral government will be instituted here. In fact we can be sure it won't be. That's just human nature and swapping one set of corrupt politicians for another won't change a thing. We have about the best government any country can have here in the USA. That might not always be true but sadly it is true now. I wish it weren't so but it is. The land of milk and honey we all dream of is on the other side of the River Jordan where the streets are paved with gold and you enter through a pearlescent gate. Would I sign it? Probably because it's true. It just isn't practical. Still I wouldn't want to be the one that stood in the way if it did turn out to be possible. Last edited by King Ghidora; November 20, 2008 at 01:12 AM. |
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November 20, 2008, 01:13 AM | #35 | ||
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November 20, 2008, 06:58 AM | #36 | |
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As you already noted, many of the men involved in the Revolution were leaders of their communities. They played an active role in their local governments and were skilled at the logisitics and communications necessary to succeed in politics at that time. Had they been allowed a vote, there is no question they would have represented a significant faction even in a parliamentary system. I think this is another reason our Revolution was successful when so many others were not. Not only were we given a structure and a stable environment to slowly develop a "shadow" government in the midst of the same government we would later oppose, we also learned the logistics and communications that are necessary to any successful war effort. This is one reason why I think revolt has been less of a feature in our political system. We essentially have a major revolt every four years and minor revolts every two years. Although these don't have the violent aftermath and destruction of infrastructure as a real civil war, they require mastery of many of the same skills - such as logistics and communication. This one reason why I believe a revolution would be futile as long as this system is accurately reflecting its representative nature - if you had the necessary numbers and skills in logistics and communication to win a war, you could much more easily win a political campaign and without the instability, risk or damage that accompanies a war. One thing all gun owners should be working on is that logistics and communications aspect. Our founding fathers were leaders and respected men in our communities. We should be as well if we want to be in a position to protect RKBA with either guns or votes - and simply by virtue of taking on those leadership responsibilities, we will learn skills that will serve us well whether we fight with votes or guns. |
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November 20, 2008, 01:04 PM | #37 | |
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Still one of the best ever. |
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November 21, 2008, 02:29 PM | #38 | |
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Think about how much you really pay in taxes: Federal, state and local income 25-45% Sales of 4-10% of what is left over. Gas tax from .25 to .75 per gallon Property tax estate tax excise taxes on cars, firearms, cigarettes, alcohol, and others. All the government fees you pay for licenses(driving, hunting, fishing, zoning teaching, firearms transfers and FFLs,etc) All these other taxes besides income add up to well over 10% of your income. So next time you think about what your income tax is, add 10% to get a true figure. Just wait until they implement a value added sales tax which drops the sales tax onto goods purchased for resale. How does wild feel about paying sales tax when those guns come in the door and still collecting it when they go out? The more I think about it the more less I am opposed to a new Boston Tea Party. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; November 21, 2008 at 02:59 PM. |
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November 21, 2008, 03:17 PM | #39 | |
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November 21, 2008, 03:57 PM | #40 | |
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Because that stuff accounts for between 30 and 40 percent of your tax load right now. I see that 700 Billion dollar bailout is mitigating a LOT of corruption. The parts of government that mitigate violence and corruption are the first 25% of your current tax load. |
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November 21, 2008, 04:05 PM | #41 |
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We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet And the morals that they worship will be gone And the men who spurred us on Sit in judgement of all wrong They decide and the shotgun sings the song I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around me Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again The change, it had to come We knew it all along We were liberated from the foe, that's all And the world looks just the same And history ain't changed 'Cause the banners, they all flown in the last war I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around me Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again No, no! I'll move myself and my family aside If we happen to be left half alive I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky For I know that the hypnotized never lie Do ya? YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! There's nothing in the street Looks any different to me And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye And the parting on the left Is now the parting on the right And the beards have all grown longer overnight I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around me Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again Don't get fooled again No, no! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Meet the new boss Same as the old boss The most intelligent rock and roll song ever written. Folks like Trotsky and Danton would testify to that, if they were still alive. WildbecarefulofwhatyouwishforitmaycometrueAlaska ™ |
November 21, 2008, 04:26 PM | #42 | |
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But its ok, as long as we buy American from firms who are terribly inefficient and producing inferior goods all our problems will be solved. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; November 21, 2008 at 04:36 PM. |
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November 21, 2008, 04:53 PM | #43 | ||
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November 21, 2008, 07:42 PM | #44 |
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social security as originally proposed by Roosevelt and Bismark would not be a problem.
Our Social security is entirely invested in T-bills. All it is is a piggy bank for the government to get cheap loans from. Same goes for FDIC. Member banks pay money into a fund which buy non-liquid t-bills and there is nothing really there to back it. Both just Washington houses of card. [removed as was off topic and aggressive.] BTW in the last week I have had three people come to me with questions about firearms for home defense who were quite startled at feeling they needed one.. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; November 21, 2008 at 10:14 PM. |
November 21, 2008, 08:42 PM | #45 | |||||
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November 21, 2008, 09:41 PM | #46 |
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What was this thread about originally?
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November 21, 2008, 10:16 PM | #47 |
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Tennessee,
we are starting a revolution, right? I was waiting for you to ship the document to my FFL tucked down the barrel of a rifle for me to sign. |
November 21, 2008, 11:27 PM | #48 |
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Spinoza, in Latin...and The Who...all in one thread.
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November 22, 2008, 12:03 AM | #49 |
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Now, if you DID happen to sign Pax's Declaration... and you lived through the revolution(s) that followed, and had influence over the governmental structure to come about afterwards:
How would you feel about this? We the Citizens of these United States come together to empower a government. Our stated goals are to provide for harmoneous and peaceful coexistence for member states of our Union, create standards of justice, enforce those standards with powers granted to the government, and provide for the common defense. To accomplish these goals, as well as to act as a defender of liberty for all generations to follow, we hereby present this article emobodying the government structure for these United States of America. |
November 22, 2008, 01:13 PM | #50 |
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John,
Well, if we did start a revolution and then fast forwarded 100 years later I suspect we would be where we are now. I am too complacent to participate in a revolution anyway.
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