WOW... 5.7 is tough... could use some suggestion...s

Magnum Wheel Man · February 22, 2009, 01:39 AM

... so I bought 1000 once fired brass from "The Brass Man" & finally got my dies, etc.

I have a 5.7 pistol, as well as a custom 10" Contender barrel...so I'm wanting to handload, for at least the Contender...

the brass is tumbling, so I decided to mock up a few dummys, while setting up the new dies... shell holder is a RCBS, as is the single stage press... the dies are a 3 die Lyman set...

1st problem... sizing the cases... the 5.7 pistol being of blow back design, moves the shoulder forward as, or just before the cartridge extracts out of the pistol... the cases must swell pretty good as well, & perhaps the laquer on the outside of the cases is complicating things, but the cases are sizing "hard", so hard, that the shell holder is deforming the tiny case head... I can size them OK, but I have to do the case in stages, go 1/4 of the way, & back out, turn the case in the shell holder, go 1/2 way, & back out ( at this point for best results, I'm wiping the case & relubing, then doing 3/4 & back then full size... quite tedious...

2nd... my die is adjusted as short ( to the shoulder ) as the die goes, & I can barely get the action to close on the Contender... these seem to chamber OK in the auto pistol, so maybe I need to tweak the chamber depth on rthe Contender, but it's unusual to have a die shortened as far as it will go & be at maximum shoulder length ???

3rd... the bullet seating die took lots of tweaking to get the bullet at the same length as the factory cartriges

also that tiny case head doesn't seem to fit the shell holder very tightly ( maybe after all the trouble sizing, as I've cliped the case mouth on a couple cases, if I don't very carefully insert into the neck sizing die...

hopefully tomorrow goes better with a few actual reloads... any suggestions to make things easier would be great...

**Unclenick** · February 22, 2009, 02:10 AM

If there is lacquer on the outside of the cases, they are steel rather than the brass you dies are designed to work with. A magnet will prove that to you one way or the other. Steel cases are not normally reloaded.

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 · February 22, 2009, 02:21 AM

G'day. If the cares are brass you might look into annealing them.

4thPointofContact · February 22, 2009, 02:22 AM

Much as I hate to disagree, but.....
5.7x28mm cases Are brass.
5.7x28mm cases Are lacquer coated as they come from the factory to facilitate extraction.

Sam06 · February 22, 2009, 08:30 AM

MWM, A trick I do is polish the inside of the dies a little with flitz. I have gotten Dies that were a little sticky and that seemed to help. Flitz is not going to take a bunch of metal off.

What lube are you using? If you are not using spray lube, try it. The other route is Imperial Neck sizing wax or their dry lube.

The shell holder is another problem. Maybe order a RCBS one, its never a bad thing to have an extra shell holder and RCBS's tolerance may be tighter than Lyman.

The 5.7 is a bottle neck cartridge, so you will have to watch case length I would assume? Like a rifle cartridge. That could be hanging you up on the TC. The contender is a custom so it has a tight chamber all my T/C's are very tight and I have to be careful when reloading. I know you have a bunch of them so I am preaching to the choir.

You may have to have a few .001's machined off the bottom of the die. The die may be too long.

I have no experience with the 5.7 but I have run into some of the problems you are describing with some of the wildcats i load for. Maybe get you machinist friend to come over with gauges and start measuring everything till you find the culprit. But if I was a betting man I would bet the die set needs some tweaking.

rn22723 · February 22, 2009, 09:02 AM

The 5.7 Cartridge is very problematic for the reloader, and you may well want to go check out http://fivesevenforum.com/viewforum....24f95987c30a27

Magnum Wheel Man · February 22, 2009, 10:51 AM

Thanks for the suggestions guys...

yes the cases are brass, but are laquer coated for use in the blow back pistol design ( or at least thats my understanding ??? )

might have to look at polishing the dies ??? I'm using a lube pad... but I even tried a drop of regular oil on my finger & lubing the case that way, & it seemed to help some... I don't currently have a case neck luber, but it's on order from Midway, should be here on Monday, as well as a tin of Imperial case neck lube... that may help, but I think the bulk of the problem stems from the fact that the brass has expended quite a bit during firing in the auto pistol, & the case head is so small ( in essence, about like trying to size a 223 with a rebated 25 acp rim )

the shell holder is an RCBS ( the dies are Lyman )... I don't know if it's a fault of the shell holder, or the acual amount of stress put on the tiny case head ???

my machinist buddy did use my dies on his press, while we were making the barrel, ( I know I have to set up the dies for my press )... but he said all the brass he ran through, all needed alot of trimming... the 5-6 cases I measured prior to running through the dies, as I was trying to mock up a couple dummy rounds, were very close to the length of the unfired case... I'll be calling him today, it was just too late last night when I was playing around, to give him a call...

Savage_The_Barbarian · February 22, 2009, 10:56 AM

Do NOT tumble these brass cases. The laquer is needed to assist in the extraction process. If you remove the lacquer, you will have lots and lots of failures to extract. Some people use a mixture of Simple Green. I hand inspect each case and use Hornady Unique as a lube. This works well for me and I have found that vibrating or cleaning the brass is not necessary as most if not all of the dirt is removed as I lube the cases. These cases will NEVER be as shiny as a new one (they aren't shiny anyways due to the lacquer) and some of the powder residue during firing will actually embed itself into the lacquer around the forward half of the case. This will not cause a problem.

All 5.7x28mm cases are brass. There is no aftermaket manufacturer for virgin brass, as of yet.

Shoulder movement is about .05in when fired. All cases must be resized before reloading. Don't worry about the primer crimp (like the .223). These pockets do not have to be swaged, and primers will seat fine.

I have never experienced the problem sizing the cases that you are mentioning. I am at about 3000 reloads for this caliber. I use Hornady dies and a Hornady shell holder. I have RCBS dies (I don't like these for the 5.7) and a RCBS shell holder that I use occasionally with no problems.

Some dies are known to not 'push' the shoulder back far enough. I have not tried the Lymans, but I have used the Hornady, RCBS, and Lee (special order when I got them). Hornady is my first choice, Lee is the second.

Bullet seating is an art unto itself with this cartridge. Make sure that you are seating these bullets deep enough. The ogive of the various .224 bullets vary widly and thus seating depths vary widely as well. Some bullets I can set to a COAL of 1.590 while others require a COAL of much less, sometimes at 1.450. Variances in the ogive from the manufacturer can be a problem too. I just loaded some 9mm with Remington 124g ERN bullets and my COAL varied from 1.137 to 1.143 and I was aiming for 1.140in.

I have not used the contender barrel for this cartridge. I did however mike all my barrels, the FiveseveN, PS90 SBR, PS90, and the Jarvis barrel. While the two rifle barrels were very close, the FiveseveN and Jarvis barrels were astonishingly different.

Some questions:

What powder are you using?
What projectiles are you using?
What load data are you using?
Are you using a single stage or progressive?
Case trim length?
Type of primer?

There is good information over at the forum mentioned. There is also lots and lots of information concerning these firearms and some reloading help over at http://fnforum.net/

Magnum Wheel Man · February 22, 2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

What powder are you using?
What projectiles are you using?
What load data are you using?
Are you using a single stage or progressive?
Case trim length?
Type of primer?

I'm open for suggestions on the powder ( I was actually just going to prep the cases, as I haven't finalized a pet load yet )

primary bullet ( so far ) that I have is Sierra 45 grain spitzers... they are a soft point... I'll likely load one of several 45 grain, as I already have several that I use n the 22 Hornet

I only reload on a single stage press, I have a rock chucker, & an old RCBS junior ( or what ever the non compound leverage press was called )... I use the "Junior" on all my tiny cartridges...

case lengths I measured on my unfired factory cases were 1.33, & that what I was matching with the dummy rounds I was trying to set up... I don't currently have a load book new enough that the 5.7 is in it, so I've been gleening reciepes as I find them, & look through what I have for powders to see if I have one I can use, or if I need another ???

Savage_The_Barbarian · February 22, 2009, 01:43 PM

First thing first. FNH strongly recommends that this round NOT be reloaded. Now that that's out of the way....

Powder recommendations are RamShot True Blue. It's a pistol powder which is what you want for this round. There is some data on HS6, HS7, and others. It is my understanding that True Blue is the US version of the powder that FNH uses in their cartridges. Others have experimented with other powders but I stick strictly to True Blue. It works well and is very easy to work with.

A 45g load will get you somewhere around 1700 to 1850 fps using True Blue depending on how 'hot' you want the load.

The 5.7x28mm platform was designed to place a light weight projectile at a high velocity on target. The heavier the projectile, the less effective the firearm becomes. FNH uses a 28g in-house hollow point, hollow end, boat tailed, copper jacketed, aluminum core projectile for the SS192, SS195LF and SS198LF cartridges. These are not available for sale to the public. They use a 32g projectile for their SS190 AP round, also not available for sale to the public. They also use the Sierra Game King FMJ for their sub-sonic SB193 loads. The 40g Hornady V-Max is the projectile used in the SS197SR 'Sporting Round'.

You are correct. The factory trim length is 1.133 not 1.33 (I'm sure that this was a typo). I used to trim my brass to various lenghts from 1.128 to 1.136 but that was for development of my load tables formulae.

Accurate and RamShot are the only ones of the powder manufacturers that I know of that have published load data for this round. I have not used the Accurate data but I have tried to duplicate the RamShot data to no avail. I keep coming up anywhere from 120 to 200 fps short compared to their data. Of course, they have a ballistics lab to do their testing in, I just have a chrony and a open range.

Good choice on the single stage. It can be done on a progressive but this round is VERY easy to double charge as a 6.5g load will only fill the case half way. Most loads use smaller amounts than 6.5g. My heaviest load so far has been a 30g Berger Varmint with 6.7g for a vel of 2125 out of the FiveseveN and 2650 out of the PS90. Its a screaming little sucker.

I CAN NOT stress to you enough that I have found that even though you will not see pressure signs in the PS90 rifle, an identical cartridge in the FiveseveN will show increased pressures. Some people have blown up a couple of their pistols - usually attributed to double charges but the jury is still out on that one.

Ryan Herle, using the moniker of Medula Oblongata at the fivesevenforum.com is one of the owners of Elite Ammunition that is an aftermarket producer of this round. He has some recipies that he uses and sometimes shares them that produce some very exciting velocities. He is probably one of the most knowledgeable people concerning this round. His company makes rounds that put the factory ammo to shame. They are very pricey though but I think that this is due to the lack of 'virgin' brass so they have to dis-assemble factory rounds and load the brass from these dis-assemble rounds.

I have load data for the Sierra 1210 Semi-Spitzer. PM me if you would like a copy of it.

Magnum Wheel Man · February 22, 2009, 04:45 PM

Thanks for all the info... my buddy ( the machinist that built both our Contender barrels... mine a 10", his a 23" ) is going to make me a trim die with my chamber reamer ( my RCBS case trimmer, doesn't seem to have a collet that fits the 5.7, even though I have a #1 & #2 collet, the case head doesn't seem to work ), & we'll partially size & partially move the shoulder back with the trim die... ( tightness will keep the brass from spinning while filing it to length in the press )... he's also going to take a few .001's off the sizing die, to allow me to push the shoulder back... seems I'm maybe 1 - 5 .001's long on the shoulder with the Lyman die & RCBS shell holder...

I will likely only / mainly shoot factory ammo in the 5.7 pistol, but am looking forward to expirimenting with loadings in the Contenders... we are both looking for a reciepe that might be a bit slower powder, & maybe fill the case fuller ( especially for use in his 23" Contender barrel )... if we find something interesting, I might make up a carbine barrel as well... both our barrels, while they both fit Contenders, are very different, mine is made from a stub of 1 in 8 twist 223 barrel, his from chopping the chamber off a 1 in 12 twist 22-250 barrel

thanks for the recommendations for powders... we might play with some powders used in the 22 Hornet, & I've been thinking 'lil gun... might be a good option as well... of course everything will be started on the mild side 1st... right now, I'd be happy to get all my cases prepped

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 · February 22, 2009, 05:43 PM

G'day. Stop, don't use 'IMPERIAL neck sizing wax', you need METRIC stuff for the 5.7.

February 22, 2009, 02:21 AM	#3
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2008 Location: Far Nth Wst QLD Australia Posts: 992	G'day. If the cares are brass you might look into annealing them. __________________ If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough! When you're confused, I'll try to use smaller words!!!

February 22, 2009, 08:30 AM	#5
Sam06 Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Fayettenam Posts: 1,086	MWM, A trick I do is polish the inside of the dies a little with flitz. I have gotten Dies that were a little sticky and that seemed to help. Flitz is not going to take a bunch of metal off. What lube are you using? If you are not using spray lube, try it. The other route is Imperial Neck sizing wax or their dry lube. The shell holder is another problem. Maybe order a RCBS one, its never a bad thing to have an extra shell holder and RCBS's tolerance may be tighter than Lyman. The 5.7 is a bottle neck cartridge, so you will have to watch case length I would assume? Like a rifle cartridge. That could be hanging you up on the TC. The contender is a custom so it has a tight chamber all my T/C's are very tight and I have to be careful when reloading. I know you have a bunch of them so I am preaching to the choir. You may have to have a few .001's machined off the bottom of the die. The die may be too long. I have no experience with the 5.7 but I have run into some of the problems you are describing with some of the wildcats i load for. Maybe get you machinist friend to come over with gauges and start measuring everything till you find the culprit. But if I was a betting man I would bet the die set needs some tweaking. __________________ The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.

February 22, 2009, 10:51 AM	#7
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Thanks for the suggestions guys... yes the cases are brass, but are laquer coated for use in the blow back pistol design ( or at least thats my understanding ??? ) might have to look at polishing the dies ??? I'm using a lube pad... but I even tried a drop of regular oil on my finger & lubing the case that way, & it seemed to help some... I don't currently have a case neck luber, but it's on order from Midway, should be here on Monday, as well as a tin of Imperial case neck lube... that may help, but I think the bulk of the problem stems from the fact that the brass has expended quite a bit during firing in the auto pistol, & the case head is so small ( in essence, about like trying to size a 223 with a rebated 25 acp rim ) the shell holder is an RCBS ( the dies are Lyman )... I don't know if it's a fault of the shell holder, or the acual amount of stress put on the tiny case head ??? my machinist buddy did use my dies on his press, while we were making the barrel, ( I know I have to set up the dies for my press )... but he said all the brass he ran through, all needed alot of trimming... the 5-6 cases I measured prior to running through the dies, as I was trying to mock up a couple dummy rounds, were very close to the length of the unfired case... I'll be calling him today, it was just too late last night when I was playing around, to give him a call... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

February 22, 2009, 04:45 PM	#11
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Thanks for all the info... my buddy ( the machinist that built both our Contender barrels... mine a 10", his a 23" ) is going to make me a trim die with my chamber reamer ( my RCBS case trimmer, doesn't seem to have a collet that fits the 5.7, even though I have a #1 & #2 collet, the case head doesn't seem to work ), & we'll partially size & partially move the shoulder back with the trim die... ( tightness will keep the brass from spinning while filing it to length in the press )... he's also going to take a few .001's off the sizing die, to allow me to push the shoulder back... seems I'm maybe 1 - 5 .001's long on the shoulder with the Lyman die & RCBS shell holder... I will likely only / mainly shoot factory ammo in the 5.7 pistol, but am looking forward to expirimenting with loadings in the Contenders... we are both looking for a reciepe that might be a bit slower powder, & maybe fill the case fuller ( especially for use in his 23" Contender barrel )... if we find something interesting, I might make up a carbine barrel as well... both our barrels, while they both fit Contenders, are very different, mine is made from a stub of 1 in 8 twist 223 barrel, his from chopping the chamber off a 1 in 12 twist 22-250 barrel thanks for the recommendations for powders... we might play with some powders used in the 22 Hornet, & I've been thinking 'lil gun... might be a good option as well... of course everything will be started on the mild side 1st... right now, I'd be happy to get all my cases prepped __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

February 22, 2009, 05:43 PM	#12
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2008 Location: Far Nth Wst QLD Australia Posts: 992	G'day. Stop, don't use 'IMPERIAL neck sizing wax', you need METRIC stuff for the 5.7. __________________ If you're not confused, you're not trying hard enough! When you're confused, I'll try to use smaller words!!!

February 22, 2009, 01:39 AM	#1
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	WOW... 5.7 is tough... could use some suggestion...s ... so I bought 1000 once fired brass from "The Brass Man" & finally got my dies, etc. I have a 5.7 pistol, as well as a custom 10" Contender barrel...so I'm wanting to handload, for at least the Contender... the brass is tumbling, so I decided to mock up a few dummys, while setting up the new dies... shell holder is a RCBS, as is the single stage press... the dies are a 3 die Lyman set... 1st problem... sizing the cases... the 5.7 pistol being of blow back design, moves the shoulder forward as, or just before the cartridge extracts out of the pistol... the cases must swell pretty good as well, & perhaps the laquer on the outside of the cases is complicating things, but the cases are sizing "hard", so hard, that the shell holder is deforming the tiny case head... I can size them OK, but I have to do the case in stages, go 1/4 of the way, & back out, turn the case in the shell holder, go 1/2 way, & back out ( at this point for best results, I'm wiping the case & relubing, then doing 3/4 & back then full size... quite tedious... 2nd... my die is adjusted as short ( to the shoulder ) as the die goes, & I can barely get the action to close on the Contender... these seem to chamber OK in the auto pistol, so maybe I need to tweak the chamber depth on rthe Contender, but it's unusual to have a die shortened as far as it will go & be at maximum shoulder length ??? 3rd... the bullet seating die took lots of tweaking to get the bullet at the same length as the factory cartriges also that tiny case head doesn't seem to fit the shell holder very tightly ( maybe after all the trouble sizing, as I've cliped the case mouth on a couple cases, if I don't very carefully insert into the neck sizing die... hopefully tomorrow goes better with a few actual reloads... any suggestions to make things easier would be great... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

February 22, 2009, 02:10 AM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	If there is lacquer on the outside of the cases, they are steel rather than the brass you dies are designed to work with. A magnet will prove that to you one way or the other. Steel cases are not normally reloaded. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 22, 2009, 02:22 AM	#4
4thPointofContact Junior member Join Date: September 22, 2007 Posts: 197	Much as I hate to disagree, but..... 5.7x28mm cases Are brass. 5.7x28mm cases Are lacquer coated as they come from the factory to facilitate extraction.

February 22, 2009, 09:02 AM	#6
rn22723 Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2001 Location: Burbs of Minneapolis Posts: 676	The 5.7 Cartridge is very problematic for the reloader, and you may well want to go check out http://fivesevenforum.com/viewforum....24f95987c30a27

February 22, 2009, 10:56 AM	#8
Savage_The_Barbarian Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Posts: 46	Do NOT tumble these brass cases. The laquer is needed to assist in the extraction process. If you remove the lacquer, you will have lots and lots of failures to extract. Some people use a mixture of Simple Green. I hand inspect each case and use Hornady Unique as a lube. This works well for me and I have found that vibrating or cleaning the brass is not necessary as most if not all of the dirt is removed as I lube the cases. These cases will NEVER be as shiny as a new one (they aren't shiny anyways due to the lacquer) and some of the powder residue during firing will actually embed itself into the lacquer around the forward half of the case. This will not cause a problem. All 5.7x28mm cases are brass. There is no aftermaket manufacturer for virgin brass, as of yet. Shoulder movement is about .05in when fired. All cases must be resized before reloading. Don't worry about the primer crimp (like the .223). These pockets do not have to be swaged, and primers will seat fine. I have never experienced the problem sizing the cases that you are mentioning. I am at about 3000 reloads for this caliber. I use Hornady dies and a Hornady shell holder. I have RCBS dies (I don't like these for the 5.7) and a RCBS shell holder that I use occasionally with no problems. Some dies are known to not 'push' the shoulder back far enough. I have not tried the Lymans, but I have used the Hornady, RCBS, and Lee (special order when I got them). Hornady is my first choice, Lee is the second. Bullet seating is an art unto itself with this cartridge. Make sure that you are seating these bullets deep enough. The ogive of the various .224 bullets vary widly and thus seating depths vary widely as well. Some bullets I can set to a COAL of 1.590 while others require a COAL of much less, sometimes at 1.450. Variances in the ogive from the manufacturer can be a problem too. I just loaded some 9mm with Remington 124g ERN bullets and my COAL varied from 1.137 to 1.143 and I was aiming for 1.140in. I have not used the contender barrel for this cartridge. I did however mike all my barrels, the FiveseveN, PS90 SBR, PS90, and the Jarvis barrel. While the two rifle barrels were very close, the FiveseveN and Jarvis barrels were astonishingly different. Some questions: What powder are you using? What projectiles are you using? What load data are you using? Are you using a single stage or progressive? Case trim length? Type of primer? There is good information over at the forum mentioned. There is also lots and lots of information concerning these firearms and some reloading help over at http://fnforum.net/

February 22, 2009, 01:43 PM	#10
Savage_The_Barbarian Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Posts: 46	First thing first. FNH strongly recommends that this round NOT be reloaded. Now that that's out of the way.... Powder recommendations are RamShot True Blue. It's a pistol powder which is what you want for this round. There is some data on HS6, HS7, and others. It is my understanding that True Blue is the US version of the powder that FNH uses in their cartridges. Others have experimented with other powders but I stick strictly to True Blue. It works well and is very easy to work with. A 45g load will get you somewhere around 1700 to 1850 fps using True Blue depending on how 'hot' you want the load. The 5.7x28mm platform was designed to place a light weight projectile at a high velocity on target. The heavier the projectile, the less effective the firearm becomes. FNH uses a 28g in-house hollow point, hollow end, boat tailed, copper jacketed, aluminum core projectile for the SS192, SS195LF and SS198LF cartridges. These are not available for sale to the public. They use a 32g projectile for their SS190 AP round, also not available for sale to the public. They also use the Sierra Game King FMJ for their sub-sonic SB193 loads. The 40g Hornady V-Max is the projectile used in the SS197SR 'Sporting Round'. You are correct. The factory trim length is 1.133 not 1.33 (I'm sure that this was a typo). I used to trim my brass to various lenghts from 1.128 to 1.136 but that was for development of my load tables formulae. Accurate and RamShot are the only ones of the powder manufacturers that I know of that have published load data for this round. I have not used the Accurate data but I have tried to duplicate the RamShot data to no avail. I keep coming up anywhere from 120 to 200 fps short compared to their data. Of course, they have a ballistics lab to do their testing in, I just have a chrony and a open range. Good choice on the single stage. It can be done on a progressive but this round is VERY easy to double charge as a 6.5g load will only fill the case half way. Most loads use smaller amounts than 6.5g. My heaviest load so far has been a 30g Berger Varmint with 6.7g for a vel of 2125 out of the FiveseveN and 2650 out of the PS90. Its a screaming little sucker. I CAN NOT stress to you enough that I have found that even though you will not see pressure signs in the PS90 rifle, *an identical cartridge in the FiveseveN will show increased pressures*. Some people have blown up a couple of their pistols - usually attributed to double charges but the jury is still out on that one. Ryan Herle, using the moniker of Medula Oblongata at the fivesevenforum.com is one of the owners of Elite Ammunition that is an aftermarket producer of this round. He has some recipies that he uses and sometimes shares them that produce some very exciting velocities. He is probably one of the most knowledgeable people concerning this round. His company makes rounds that put the factory ammo to shame. They are very pricey though but I think that this is due to the lack of 'virgin' brass so they have to dis-assemble factory rounds and load the brass from these dis-assemble rounds. I have load data for the Sierra 1210 Semi-Spitzer. PM me if you would like a copy of it.