First Home Defense Pistol Advice

[Thorguard]

Hey all, looking to buy my first self defense pistol. I've been broken into before and it's time to get myself a firearm.

I've been searching for awhile now and am having quite a bit of trouble finding all that is available. Would be awesome if there was a site like ammoseek.com but for firearms to narrow down my parameters of all available options

Anyway I'm looking for a DA/SA 9mm pistol with a manual safety under $400. Preferably with decocker and not sure if I care about striker or hammer. I'd like to go full size if possible but not bound to it (love the look of the beretta 92's). I'm open to used but would prefer to stay new if possible.

I've come up with a list of possible options but by no means are these the only ones I'm considering (so feel free to list anything that fits my parameters) just the ones I've found that appear to mostly fit my needs.

Beretta 92S (used italian import)
Taurus PT92
Ruger 9E
EAA SAR Arms B6P
Canik C100
Stoegar Cougar
Canik S-120
Taurus PT111 G2
(Some seem difficult to find online such as some of the caniks and stoegar)

I won't carry with it (at least not at first) it'll be a home defense pistol on the nightstand. Though I may wear it holstered around the house to get myself comfortable with it.

Which is why I only feel comfortable with a DA/SA with a manual safety and preferably decocker (uncocked and locked). Something safe from falls as well, which is the reason I wrote earlier that I'm not sure about hammer vs striker is because I want something that's safe if it were ever to fall. Wouldn't the hammer hit the firing pin, even if on safety? Or are there any that avoid that? I think the beretta 92fs does but that's a little out of my price range, and the position of the safety/decocker is awkwardly high being on the slide.

Wasn't on my list but awhile ago I was in love with the Canik TP9v2 after seeing sootch00's video. Amazing quality, price and came with extra goodies like a decent holster. I was upset when I saw it had no safety, just a decocker, otherwise that was one of the best.

The Taurus PT92 seems to fit the bill fairly well but I'm hesitant about the taurus name. Beretta 92S is good overall but used and I dislike the mag release on the butt. The PT111 is good aside from the trigger, though it's a compact with relatively small capacity that I don't like, but man that price... The SAR B6P seems ok aside from the slide being inside the frame, hate that. Cannot find the perfect option. That would probably be the TP9v2 but with a safety, oh well.

Couple final thoughts. Saw some that had a safety but it couldn't be engaged with the hammer/striker down, so need to make sure it can do that. And if I buy a factory new weapon from gunbrokers, cdnn, buds or what have you, the warranty is still good right?


Appreciate anyone who can read through my long posts haha. Thanks!

PS: I intend to get an AR-15 later on as well when funds permit, but I need a pistol to start with.

[marine6680]

In general, a pistol does not need a safety, if properly designed and used. A DA/SA with a decoder and safety is generally considered redundant. (In fact, the one on the Beretta is considered a liability by many)

Revolvers have no safeties, yet are considered very safe to carry in DA mode. The same applies for most DA autos as well.

Glocks and the like, are designed to be drop safe. The only way they will fire is with a pull of the trigger. It is the shooters job to ensure that pull is deliberate.


If you are new to shooting and firearms, most would suggest a basic training class to start with. You will learn a lot, and your comfort with pistols will increase. You may find you no longer have the same reservations as before, and that opens up more pistol options.


Pistols based on the CZ75 design (you listed two) are DA/SA, but are often cocked and locked carry, unless you manually lower the hammer, and for new shooters that can be unnerving and potentially dangerous. Decock versions are available, but decock only though, no decock/safety.

Something like an M&P with manual safety may be an option.. it's not DA/SA but it has the advantage of not having two different trigger pulls... as some have issues with the transition, and it requires a lot of practice. (My preference is no safety, but S&W make the safety an option)

The canik TP9v2 is a DA/SA striker, and is by all accounts a good pistol. No safety, only a decocker.


Modern techniques have you disengage the safety as you draw the pistol for use, NOT at the moment you think you need to shoot. If you grab it off the nightstand, the safe rule applies... Safety when you first pick it up. It is up to you to keep your trigger finger straight and away from the trigger until you intend to immediately pull the trigger.

So in effect, the safety is only there to be used when the gun is being carried or stored at the ready... that's really it's only job... when things get serous, the safety goes off. The need for trigger discipline is then increased.

Most modern pistols are designed to be safe to carry without a safety.


Seriously, a basic training class will likely go a long way to ease your fears... so long as you get a competent instructor. I have seen instructors that pushed safety so hard, that it made some owners more nervous. Usually those instructors are not defense focused, and they teach "range" safety. Two different mind sets... and they don't mix much.

[gyvel]

Go to CDI Sales on Gunbroker and buy one of their used CZ75D pistols for under $400.00.

Read the descriptions carefully and download the photos to your PC so you can photoshop the pics to make them a little lighter, allowing you to see more detail on the gun.

I've ordered two from them so far and they have both exceeded expectations.

[Thorguard]

Thank you for the reply.

I forgot to mention that I knew many were going to respond how DA/SA with safety is unnecessary as I've heard that many times in the thousand or more posts I've read. But honestly (and as you pointed out) it isn't a huge impediment. If it takes a tenth of a second longer to swipe my thumb down over a safety as I draw, that is a small price I am willing to pay for extra peace of mind.

[marine6680]

I posted an edit right as you were posting your reply, so don't overlook it.

[O4L]

Here is a website that might help.

slickguns.com

[skizzums]

if you find the Canik's interesting, which they are, they also sell under the name TriStar. I have the Tri-Star T-100 and is my most loved and reliable pistol. For straight up home defense, I would choose it over the others with the EAA Sar K2 in second.

lots of in stock Canik/TriStar's, check your local academy as well if you have one in your area.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/i.../cPath/21_1860

sar's are unbeatable in price and most new shooters can shoot them better than the Canik's, I guess because they probably have slimmer grips and easier to see sights. just as reliable in my experience. lots of Witness's in the same range as well.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/i...p/cPath/21_231

[Thorguard]

T100 is interesting at first glance, though a little small.

It's hammer though. My mind just goes over lots of scenario's like what if I were on the couch with the pistol holstered and the dog jumped on me, stepped on the hammer and discharged the gun.

Does safety work when uncocked? (don't care what anyone says, I will never carry cocked and locked hehe).

[Limnophile]

A good resource, although not exhaustive by any means: http://www.genitron.com/Handgun-Manufacturers/.

If you are planning on carrying or keeping your pistol in Condition 2, a manual safety lock doesn't do much good. Carrying in Condition 1 is quite safe, but you might wish to convince yourself of this by carrying the unloaded pistol like this for long enough to demonstrate that the safety lock does not disengage on its own.

As to drop safety, virtually all new handguns should be immune from igniting a primer upon being dropped from waist height. The CA DOJ maintains a list of handguns that have passed their drop safety test. The list is not exhaustive, as manufacturers may have opted not to submit to the expense of letting CA drop test all their models (a different finish is a different model in CA's eyes).

Most pistols attain drop safety through use of a firing pin block. A FPB keeps the firing pin from moving, even if it is directly struck, until the trigger is fully depressed, thus lifting the FPB and freeing it. I have some pistols that have rebounding hammer safeties that allow a falling hammer to strike the firing pin only when the trigger is fully depressed.

Understanding a gun's safety mechanisms helps in making purchasing decisions. For example, assume you like a Canik, but are put off by the safety lock and absence of a decocker. If you want to carry in Condition 2 you'll find the FPB helps you to manually lower the hammer safely: with the pistol pointed in a safe direction and your thumb (or thumb and finger of your off hand) on the hammer depress the trigger until the hammer is released, allow the hammer to lower slightly, then release the trigger. The FPB is now engaged, so even if you drop the hammer the cartridge cannot ignite. You'll want to practice this with an unloaded pistol until you are comfortable performing the task, but it's easy and reliable and safe. If you want to carry in Condition 1 you have no need to lower the hammer, and you will enjoy the benefit of a nice SA trigger pull each and every time.

Your list is a good one. In another recent thread someone reported Sarsilmaz B6Ps being available for less than $300 as I recall -- undoubtedly the best deal on your list. The poster was leadcounsel I believe. The slide rides on rails inside the frame on all CZ 75 pattern pistols, including the Caniks. That design helps make these pistols quite accurate.

Good shopping.

[745SW]

Beretta 92 is excellent. The PT92 is perhaps one of the better Taurus pistols.

[Slimjim9]

I only feel comfortable with a DA/SA with a manual safety and preferably decocker (uncocked and locked). Something safe from falls as well

As already mentioned, pretty much any gun being manufactured today is drop safe. I think marine6680 pretty well covered everything but let me just add that you will not feel comfortable with anything until you have some real experience with it. I know you're on a tight budget but it would really behoove you to get to a range that rents handguns and try some of the mechanisms. I tried a DA/SA pistol and hated it. You might like it and that's great but you won't know until you try for yourself. My advice would be a revolver like the LCR357, maybe a used GP100 or mid-sized Smith. Good luck - and welcome to TFL!

[JDBerg]

For what you want to use it for, I don't think there is a better gun, and it's only a little bit over your price target;

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/m...9mm_black_16rd

[adamBomb]

I would suggest the Taurus PT111 out of your list. 12+1 capacity, 9mm, safety (since you want it), re strike capability - as in if the first round doesnt fire you pull the trigger again, and its only $200. Plus if you decide you want to conceal carry you can carry it. Down the road if you decide you want a different gun you only spend $200 so you won't have buyers remorse.

As far as Taurus rep, they had some quality issues years ago but their new guns seem to be very reliable and a lot of people like them. Heck sigs and glocks have had their issues too, they just do a lot better marketing. I just talked to a shop owner a few weeks back who said that they are really up and coming right now...although they need to get past their previous quality issues/lawsuit.

[WVsig]

If you shop around you should be able to get a used Beretta 92FS for right around $400. I see them all the time for $375-$450 depending on condition.

[Cossack]

Keep an eye out for a used Smith and Wesson 3rd Generation metal-framed auto. They seem to fit all of your requirements, and while they're not quite as cheap and abundant as they were a couple years ago when the market was still full of recent police department trade-ins, they're still available for a good price. You should be able to find a 5906 or 6906 (or one of many others that fit your description - those are just two of the most often encountered) for between $300 and $400, perhaps less.

They were a law enforcement standard for good reason. My first "serious" auto was a S&W 915, and it gave no problems.

All of the models I mentioned have the same basic controls as the Beretta you found, but don't have the heel mag release. The safety acts as a decocker, so when you engage it the hammer drops. So, as you desired, you then have a gun with the hammer down and safety engaged. Swipe the thumb to disengage the safety and you're ready for your first DA shot.

[TunnelRat]

It's hammer though. My mind just goes over lots of scenario's like what if I were on the couch with the pistol holstered and the dog jumped on me, stepped on the hammer and discharged the gun.

That's physically impossible with any modern production pistol I can think of. First there is the firing pin block. This physically stops the firing pin that impacts the primer on a cartridge and leads to the bullet firing from going forward unless the trigger itself is pressed to the rear (a good reason that a holster that covers the trigger guard is critical). Secondly the hammer needs a certain amount of momentum to overcome the firing pin spring inside the slide (on a modern hammer fired pistol the firing pin spring holds the firing pin in the rest position so that it can't move forward and hit the primer freely). If the hammer was decocked a forward movement of the firing pin be essentially impossible unless that dog hit you with enough force to drive you through the couch and the floor. Many pistols also have a half cock position or hammers that are held off of the back of the firing pin which works in some ways as an additional precaution (HKs use a mechanical shelf that holds the hammer off the firing pin). Even if the hammer was cocked the manual safety would have to be disengaged or broken, breaking it would again require some incredible force, and you'd still have the firing pin block anyway. The process is redundant on purpose.

Many people have told you at this point that modern production pistols are generally drop safe. Another way to look at it is they are impact resistant when it comes to accidental discharges, absent a mechanical failure at a rate that would make even Vegas baffled.

I'll echo what some people have said above and say that a basic pistol course is really worth the money. Besides giving you an introduction to safety and the process of shooting, a good basic pistol instructor should go over a lot of the concerns you have. Near me locally the NRA Basic Pistol instructor actually brings a number of pistols with different firing mechanisms and trigger actions for students to try during the live fire portion of the test. This was a big help for me personally. If you find someone offering such a course, don't be afraid to ask them if they do expose the class to different pistols.

[g.willikers]

but I need a pistol to start with.

No you don't.
This:

If you are new to shooting and firearms, most would suggest a basic training class to start with. You will learn a lot, and your comfort with pistols will increase. You may find you no longer have the same reservations as before, and that opens up more pistol options.

And, if self defense is the goal, there's far more to learn than how to operate a gun and shoot straight.
If you want to survive a potentially deadly situation, that is.

[Wyosmith]

"Mission statement" is all important.

What is the gun for?

In other words, are you going to carry the gun with you, or are you going to leave it home. Is it for "home defense" as your post says, or is it for 24 hour personal defense?

I will point out (again) that anyone buying a gun for home defense should not by ANY handgun, but get a shotgun or a rifle instead. They are better in every way except one. That one way they loose out to a handgun is in portability, but if you are not going to carry that one superior attribute is 100% irrelevant.
Shotguns and rifles are far easier to make hits with. In most examples they are more powerful. In the case of military style auto-loaders they hold more ammo. They kick less for any given power level (comparing apples to apples)

All the forgoing posts are good to read and there is a lot of info there, but if you are not going to carry they are all giving good answers to the wrong question.

[skoro]

Originally Posted by Thorguard

I only feel comfortable with a DA/SA with a manual safety and preferably decocker

If you're open to considering a used pistol, the 3rd generation S&W 9mm's are considered to be almost ideal and they fit the requirements you laid out above. The Model 3913 or Model 908 would do nicely for your situation.

[Brando1992]

I'm going to second all the advice given so far: Training will go a long ways. The double action trigger is plenty of mechanical safety for a gun, especially a defensive gun. If that's still a concern get a DA revolver. If its strictly for home defense on a budget a $200 mossberg 12g will serve you much better for cheaper, but the pistol would serve a double purpose and possibly be used much more at the range than the shotgun.

the canik tp9v2 would be my suggestion in a pistol for your situation. A friend of mine just got one and loves it!

here is a post I made comparing many full sized pistols on a budget.

A lot of good advise on this forum...

[Oysterboy]

I'd go for the hammer. The hammer on a DA/SA has a half position where it's not on the firing pin nor cocked like my HK USP V1 9mm. I carry mine like that with a round in the chamber.

Another pistol I trust is my Sig P250c 40sw. It's DAO and has a long but easy trigger. Also safe to carry with a round in the chamber.

[FAS1]

I won't carry with it (at least not at first) it'll be a home defense pistol on the nightstand.

Be sure and consider how you will store it for quick access if you have any concerns about it just laying around. There are lots of choices these days. Welcome to The Firing Line.

[Xfire68]

I personally love CZ pistols. Granted most of them are a bit over your $400 price range but are exceptional firearms for the money.

I own a CZ 75B and would bet my life on it's accuracy and reliability. I have shot the P07 and Phantom and they are great guns as well.

I did see a CZ P09 in .40 cal for under $400 on Buds.

There are many good reliable pistols out there in your price range though. It comes down to which one fits your hand and needs best.

[TomNJVA]

The best firearm for home defense is an endless Internet debate. The shotgun is often considered the king of home defense, but in addition to portability most also have an issue with capacity. Even with my extended magazine I still only have six rounds to work with. It would be fine if television was reality and one shotgun blast sends three thugs flying through the air, but in fact that's not the case. At seven yards my 12 gauge yields a pattern of only 4", so misses are still likely, especially against a moving target in the dark, and six rounds may come up short. An AR15 may be a better choice if you can accept the potential over-penetration issues with your misses.

I keep my 12 ga loaded at bedside, but also like a 17 round 9mm semi pistol nearby and would grab it first if I woke to intruders in the house. Since police officers average 75% misses in a firefight, I'm willing to trade fire power for capacity and can still retreat to the shotgun if needed.

Re the OP's questions, the problem with manual safeties is remembering to switch them off when in a total shaking panic. Lots of practice can reduce this issue, but I am very comfortable with a DA/SA and knowing that when I pull the trigger the gun will go bang.

TomNJVA

[Kosh75287]

G. Willikers is quite right. Owning and being skilled in the use of a firearm is not all there is to surviving a deadly-force encounter. But the prospect of surviving such an encounter WITHOUT a firearm and the skill to use it well is a grim one, indeed. I think loftier thinkers in the world refer to it as a "necessary but not sufficient" condition.

I think your decision to procure and become skilled with a firearm is prudent. Just don't stop your preparations after you've become skilled.

About the possible choices you listed:

1.) I've shot 3 different Beretta M92s, and 5 or 6 of the Taurus clones. All but one of the Taurus clones shot noticeably tighter and more reliably than the 3 Berettas.The one that didn't shoot better shot groups so close to the size of the Beretta groups that the difference wasn't worth mentioning.

2.) I have no experience with the Ruger 9E, but I have bought, carried, and used Ruger products for all of my adult life and a good part of my childhood. They are invariably rugged, easy to use, and (usually) reasonably priced firearms, on which I would readily depend for my life. I would expect the the 9E to be no different.

3.) I am currently shooting a C-100 Canik as a sort of "endurance test", and have been delighted with it. Its DA/SA design allows the owner to carry it in condition 1 ("cocked and locked") if desired, or with the hammer down on a loaded chamber ("condition 2", I believe?). It has shot every type of factory ammo I've fed it, and a number of handloads that other more expensive 9mm pistols had trouble digesting. If the C-100 can still be purchased for between $300 and $350 where you are, I consider them the best "new in the box" buy among the centerfire auto pistols. I obtained mine from a local "Academy" sporting goods store. The C-100 does not come with a decocker. It has a thumb safety, which prevents the piece from being fired until pushed down by the thumb of the shooting hand. Personally, I find decockers an inadequate attempt to obviate the need for thumb safeties, and have seen my share of negligent discharges as a result of depending on them too much.

4.) I'm not familiar enough with the other pistols you list to render a meaningful judgement about them. I would stake my life on the pistols on which I HAVE commented.

5.) Try to avoid pistols which become inoperative when the magazine is removed. This mechanism is sometimes called a "magazine safety" (ironically) or "magazine disconnect". The ability to cover an opponent with the remaining round in the chamber while reloading is one of the salient advantages of an automatic pistol over a revolver. This "safety" feature negates that advantage. I am convinced that this feature was dreamed up by Ralph Nader and a committee of closeted gun-haters who, after inflicting their invention on the gun market, all fled in different directions, never to meet again.
If you cannot make the hammer fall by squeezing the trigger with the magazine removed, I strongly suggest that you reconsider purchasing that pistol. The only exception which comes to mind is the excellent, though expensive Browning P-35 (sometimes called "Hi-Power"). Its magazine disconnect can, mercifully, be removed fairly easily, and it usually improves the trigger pull, in the process.

No need to apologize for "long posts" here. I seem to be the "poster child" for that particular malady, and I make no apology for it.

One last thing... Please DO try to work the purchase of a pump-action or automatic shotgun into your budget, somewhere. The "schlick-schlack" sound of a round being chambered in one of those is sometimes enough to discourage would-be intruders from pressing their agenda. If they are unwise enough to continue their plans to intrude, they face almost certain death at the muzzle of one of these.