JHP load data

[rebs]

I have a couple hundred 158 gr JHP bullets to load in 38 & 357 magnum. Does anyone have a decent load for these ? They will be fired in a S&W model 19 with a 4" barrel.

[SHR970]

Lots of loads to be had w/ W296, 2400, 4227, Lil Gun, AA#9, AA#7, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

What powders do you have on hand? Loads don't have to be balls out to be good loads.

[rebs]

I have bullseye, unique, 231,2400 and WST
Just looking for some decent practice and self defense loads, your right they do not have to be full house hot loads. Comfortable enough to practice with and warm enough for self defense.

[Nick_C_S]

I have bullseye, unique, 231,2400 and WST

I have no experience with WST. But of the remainders, Unique and 2400 would be the best choices. I'm a fast powder centric loader, yet I will tell you that Bullseye and W231 are unacceptable choices for the application - they're just too darn fast and would be seriously flirting with pressure spikes.

Just looking for some decent practice and self defense loads, your right they do not have to be full house hot loads. Comfortable enough to practice with and warm enough for self defense.

Unique can give you the practice; 2400 can give you the full-house self-defense. In 357 Magnum, Unique does much better with lighter bullets. I use it quite a bit for 125's. But it can drive 158's to decent velocities.

2400 however, likes the 158's a lot. It's actually a new to me powder and 158/357 is the only workup I've done with it. With Speer's 158 JHP, I've gone to the book (Speer #14) max of 14.8 grains, and yielded 1237 f/s thorough my 686 4" bbl. I've gone beyond, but choose not to post it. Besides, 1237 f/s is mighty fast for a 158 through a 4" - definitely "defense level." Muzzle flash, report, and recoil are all rather intense, however. 2400 is a bit much for a 4" bbl - it would definitely come into better balance through a longer tube.

It would be nice if you had something in between the burn rates of Unique and 2400; like - say - Power Pistol, or HS-6. I've done work ups with both and they rather describe what you're looking for. I've taken HS-6 to 1153 f/s; and Power Pistol to 1192 f/s - both with much less flash, report, and recoil than the booming 2400.

[44 AMP]

158 gr JHP bullets to load in 38 & 357 magnum. Does anyone have a decent load for these ?

Yes, Lyman, Speer, Hornady, Sierra, and a number of other people who publish reloading manuals!

[Slamfire]

Skeeter Skelton said he fired 13.5 grains 2400 with a 158 in a 38 Special case in the 357. I never tried that in 38 Special cases, might be a little hot. However I have shot tens of thousands of 13.5 grs 2400 in 357 Magnum cases. It is accurate, shoots well in all my 357's, and with a lead 158 grain bullet or a 158 jacketed.

Some of Skeeter's loads can be found in threads on the web:

http://triggernometry.us/viewtopic.php?t=426

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=30

Smith & Wesson M27-2					
	
158 LSWC 13.5grs 2400 R-P cases CCI primers		
					
9-Oct-05	T = 64 °F				
					
Ave Vel =1273				
Std Dev =44.03				 
ES  =	176.7				 
High  =1372				 
Low  =	1195				 
N =	30

158 JHP (W/W) 13.5 grains 2400 R-P cases WSP		
5-Aug-06	T = 103 °F
				
Ave Vel =1196		 		
Std Dev =26.58				 
ES  =	87.17				 
High  =1244				 
Low  =	1157				
 N =	10				 
					
accurate					

	
 

Colt Trooper MKIII 6" Barrel  			
					
		
158 gr LSWC  13.5 grs 2400  R-P cases WSP			
30-Dec-15	T = 55 ° F				
					
Ave Vel =1169		 	 	
Std Dev =33		  	 	
ES  =	176.3		 		
High  =1276		 	 	
Low  =	1100		 		
N =	24		 	 	
		 		
					
158 gr JHP 13.5 grs 2400  R-P cases WSP			
30-Dec-15	T = 58 ° F				
					
Ave Vel =1108		 		
Std Dev =18		  		
ES  =	49.86		 		
High  =1140		 		
Low  =	1090		 		
N =	6		 		
					
					

M66-2 4" Barrel

158gr Rem JHP 13.5 grs 2400 R-P primed cases
16-Aug-92 T = 75 °F

Ave Vel =1227
Std Dev =14
ES = 34
Low = 1209
High = 1243
N = 6

[Hammerhead]

Which 158 JHP?
Most 357-158 JHP's need speed to expand. That would be a near full power load with 2400.

If you have XTP's you could get away with a 1,000 fps load, but in a 4" revolver that takes 2400 or a stiff load of Unique. (the 2400 would probably feel softer).

Find your starting load in a reloading manual and work up until you reach 10% below max, or you reach your recoil limit, or you hit a sweet spot for accuracy.

For a practice load, 6 grains of Unique works great with any 158 grain jacketed or plated bullet.

[rebs]

Thank you for the replies, I appreciate it.
I went searching through some loading notes I found from the mid 70's and found I was loading 357 mag back then with 158 gr jhp with 13.5 of 2400. I did not find any data with 38 special from back then in my notes.

[Slamfire]

I went searching through some loading notes I found from the mid 70's and found I was loading 357 mag back then with 158 gr jhp with 13.5 of 2400. I did not find any data with 38 special from back then in my notes.

With all the 38 Special snubbies I have laying around, and then all the 38 Special 4" barreled revolvers I have, I decided not to load up any magnum level loads in 38 Special. I did not want the chance of one magnum level load getting inside of one of my Colt Detective Specials and blowing the top strap, and you know, stupid things happens.

Based on the grip wear, I think this was a Cop gun. Serial number dates it to 1937.




I am certain there are lots of 158 JHP loads in 38 Special cases with Unique. Just that I shoot Bullseye in the 38 Special.

[briandg]

I did not want the chance of one magnum level load getting inside of one of my Colt Detective Specials and blowing the top strap, and you know, stupid things happens.

This is why handloading of +p rounds should be done in +p headstamped brass.

Another alternative is to buy an oddball headstamp that could clearly stand out when in the cylinder and use an unusual bullet.

Make it easy to tell them apart, whether lying on the bench, or loaded into the chamber.

[FITASC]

This is why handloading of +p rounds should be done in +p headstamped brass.

Another alternative is to buy an oddball headstamp that could clearly stand out when in the cylinder and use an unusual bullet.

Make it easy to tell them apart, whether lying on the bench, or loaded into the chamber.

Another way is to use different bullets; i.e. 158 LSWC for 38, plated 158 LSWC for +P and jacketed 158 SWC for 357 levels


Or, just use brass for 38, and nickel cases for +P

[mikld]

I'm not into "celebrity loads" and would suggest picking a load for the 38 using a 158 JHP with a starting Bullseye charge from your manual. For the 357, pick a starting load of 2400 right from your manual.

I've seen some ridiculous and on one occasion dangerous load data online so, I pay very little attention to any forum expert, range rat, pet loads website, gun counter clerk or gun shop guru when it comes to load data, no matter how long or involved the post is or how "expert" the guy sounds. I've successfully and safely loaded up to 11 different cartridges for the last 30 years with data from a published reloading manual(s) only (with the exception of 2 loads for my Garand). I haven't run out of combinations of components, charges, or methods using information in my manuals...

[briandg]

Imo, it takes either crazy gullible,reckless or ignorant to draw data from a guy at a keyboard or a display case. For ever safe, honest answer acquired, there will be a ton of sketchy data.

Data manuals cost money, like the Speer book, but powder companies and many others offer load data in an official format. Unless you don't have access,it's dead simple to print a page and file it. There's even room for notes.

If I asked twenty people what to load my .38 with, standing right in front of me, I believe that every one would offer advice on small matters, and a lot of them would even tell me complete load data.

I think that everyone would offer powder suggestions. I'd be willing to do that.

"Look at accurate#2. They have a great website with the load data."

Or I might suggest something totally crazy, because I was struck by lightning while shooting trap, and I'm not right in the head anymore.

[FITASC]

because I was struck by lightning while shooting trap, and I'm not right in the head anymore.

That's your answer right there...............

I agree though. If you can post a thread here about what load to use, then you can go to Hodgdon or Alliant or whomever's powder you have and get published (and tested) data

[SHR970]

There are legit loads using Bullseye and W231 listed in older manufacturers guides. Should you chose to try them just keep in mind: Max is MAX!. W231 is more forgiving on the pressure spike but you will spike pretty quick with either. Unique is somewhat more forgiving than W231; find the place where it runs relatively clean and you are where you need to be. W231 and Unique should be loaded for 357 Lite - Med.

2400 down loads reasonably well and this is your powder for full blast. If you want velocity, noise, AND flash; run this powder near full max.



I haven't seen loads using WST ever listed and never tried it. It is also on the fast side of the world so the same caveats apply.

[buck460XVR]

Powder manufacturers all have tested recipes on their websites. Just GTS. Google is your friend.


https://www.hodgdon.com/basic-manual-inquiry.html

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...cipeList.aspx&

[briandg]

You never want to trust a guy who was struck by lightning while shooting trap. The charge hits the end of the barrel. It goes straight down the barrel, bounces off of the brain pan on the way to the ground, and while the brain is still being jiggled around like jelly, every round in the thing fires and sets up vibrations that lock the entire cerebrum into a permanent stated of kookiness.

My neighbor at least claims to have been struck TWICE. I can't be sure that he is a raving lunatic because he was actually struck by lightning, or if he made that story up because he's nuts. All I know for sure is that he's a regular pecan orchard. Nuts, that is. Listening to him talking about politics is mind numbing.

There are people on this planet that I wouldn't even trust to tell me what gas station to go to.

[briandg]

If you do use an old powder manual or even one of the old folders that you used to be able to pick up at dealers, remember that the data is going to be as old as your grandma, and while it may have been totally acceptable at the time, the currently published data will most likely not match, and it may be higher than current data.

Using old powder data may work just fine, but you can't always count on fifty year old bullseye data that used random 158 grain JHP bullets with every random JHP bullet out today.

Just like everything use good judgment as you pick and work up loads.

My suggestion, and you should take this seriously, is to choose the lowest listed powder charge among the various load listings. for example, lets say that hodgdon and speer both publish +p loads for .38 special. Hodgdon data ends at 5 grains of whatever, speer lists data up to 6. start from 4.5, maybe work up to 6 if you feelk completely safe. 6 ought to be fine, but should be by definition means that there's a chance that it won't be.

I have powder data that goes back over 50 years. I don't trust anything over ten years old.

[SHR970]

If you do use an old powder manual or even one of the old folders that you used to be able to pick up at dealers, remember that the data is going to be as old as your grandma, and while it may have been totally acceptable at the time, the currently published data will most likely not match, and it may be higher than current data.

Really?? My Hercules book is from 1992. If you call Alliant and ask for Bullseye data for a 357 they'll quote you the SAME info that is in that manual.

And Grandma would be 24 years old.

[briandg]

You aren't looking back far enough. Someone who started reloading in 1970 and has data from the 1950s. Yessir, data from that far back, from various sources is very different from what you will find now. Even data twenty or thirty years old tends to be different.

At one point we stopped using the old method of measuring pressures and data marks changed for a lot of loads. At another point we became more concerned about lawsuits and powder data points changed again. Brands were sold, and again it could have changed, and even at that, book after book provides different data than what is provided by the actual powder manufacturer, and in those cases, you really are safe to assume that both loads were tested and found to be safe as long as they are followed exactly.

You know, I have data from the lyman cast bullet data that was probably dumped because it wasn't safe to assume that the people using the data were smart enough to do it.

It happens.

[briandg]

by the way, let a guy get by with a little exaggeration once in a while.

[Slamfire]

At one point we stopped using the old method of measuring pressures and data marks changed for a lot of loads. At another point we became more concerned about lawsuits and powder data points changed again. Brands were sold, and again it could have changed, and even at that, book after book provides different data than what is provided by the actual powder manufacturer, and in those cases, you really are safe to assume that both loads were tested and found to be safe as long as they are followed exactly.

My Speer No 8 manual did not use pressure equipment. Some of the loads in that manual should be considered a bit "hot"! I think I read in an older Lyman manual the reasons why copper crusher data provided lower pressure numbers than piezo electric. I am absolutely certain that copper crusher data was calibrated, and calibrated against static weights. This would work, work well, and how else would you do it? Pile on a 10,000 pounds of weight and see how much the disc crushes. Pile on a 40,000 pound weight and see how much the disc crushes. However, cartridge pressure is over and done in milliseconds and I think the reason copper crusher data is lower is because of material response. In the milliseconds it was exposed to a load, the copper did not deform to the same amount if the load had been applied for seconds or minutes.

Given the firearms were designed with the assumption that 50,000 copper units was 50,000 pounds per square inch, it just makes sense that once they created more sensitive and accurate measuring devices, they would have to rethink their load data. If the piezo electric data showed that the old load that produced 50,000 CUP is actually 60,000 psia, then the load data in the books is going to have to come down, because you are over stressing the as built weapons on the market.

[SHR970]

You aren't looking back far enough.

I have Ackley's Vol.s 1&2....read them extensively. I know how seat of the pants some of that data was. I also gained a good understanding of working in unknown territory and finding what is max based on voodoo pressure signs. Much of that data's max is WELL beyond max and is in PROOF territory.

I also know Lee doesn't do anything original or tested by themselves; just a rehash of everyone elses data. OP could get Lee #2 and find data for BE or 231... same data from the 90's & 2k's.

[rebs]

I have an older Lyman manual from the late 70's and check other manuals online. I like the Nosler and Sierra manuals online.

Which manual would you guys suggest for a new manual ?

[mikld]

Well, I guess I'm a dinosaur. I like a published manual I can open, lay down on y bench, and read. I can put several open manuals on my bench and compare data without switching screens on my computer. I have used powder manufacture's web sites and printed a page to take to my reloading bench, but that is the one exception for load data.

This is what I've done and I have had only one squib, in 1970, and never a KABOOM! in 30+ years of reloading (I even had a case of "Magnumitis" and used some pretty hot loads in my .44 Magnums, but never an OOPS!). So, if one chooses to find charge data from Billy Bob's cousin, or an anonymous forum "expert", oh well, God bless his little heart...