Farm tenant arrested after burglars shot ...

[pnac]

Good article that illustrates the state of gun rights and self-defense in general in "Jolly Olde England". Seems as if not much has changed in the last decade+.
I wonder if the "antis" will agree with this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...break-ins.html

Link to related article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-minister.html

[geetarman]

I saw those articles this morning also.

Something is majorly wrong with the way Britain views the rights of law abiding citizens versus those who prey on them.

I really do not expect much change there.

[jhenry]

That stuff no longer surprises me from their government. What continues to disgust me however, is the "lay down and take it" attitude of the British people in general with this sort of nonsense.

[BGutzman]

What continues to disgust me however, is the "lay down and take it" attitude of the British people in general with this sort of nonsense.

Agreed the whole attitude defies logic and they seem to be willing to accept any price for protection even though in most cities and towns violent crime rates are higher than ever... Im sure the BGs appreciate knowing 99.9% of people have no firearms... Group think on a massive scale....

[jmortimer]

Saw it on Drudge early this morning. As soon as I saw it was from England it made "sense." Glad to see that sentences were reduced in other cases of self-defense.

[manta49]

There's not enough information yet to make a judgment.

Were the buglers in the house.?
Were they shot in the house or grounds.?
Were they shot in the back while running away.

British citizens have the right to self defence just the same as America. They can use reasonable force that can include lethal force.

After a shooting their has to be a investigation just like in America. They have to be questioned under caution that means they have to be arrested.


There have being a few cases recently were house owners have stabbed buglers to death. No charges were brought judged to be self defence.

PS. There is a lot of misinformation on this forum when it comes to self defence in the UK.

[Mk VII]

They must be arrested, and cautioned, if any information obtained from interviews is to be of any use for potential prosecutions. Also things may not be as they first appear in these cases.

[BlueTrain]

So, are you all saying crime is worse in England than it is here in the U.S.?

[jimbob86]

He is understood to have fired at the intruders who then fled the isolated house at Melton Mowbray, Leics, before calling the police.

Not exactly clear on this..... did the burglars call the cops after being shot?

Clear as mud, there......

[Mk VII]

The sentence is ambiguous. Another paper says

Paramedics treated a man with shotgun injuries after the couple called police at about 12.30am, Leicestershire police said. It is understood that a second call was made by one of the suspected burglars. Later, a second man was treated for shotgun injuries after presenting himself at Leicester Royal Infirmary.

[jimbob86]

Robbers calling the cops on victims ..... Iv'e been told that lefty-thinking would turn everything on it's head, and there it is!

[Skadoosh]

Mk VII wrote: They must be arrested, and cautioned, if any information obtained from interviews is to be of any use for potential prosecutions. Also things may not be as they first appear in these cases.

Come again? Do you mean the prosecution of the burglars...or the prosecution of the tenants?

[cmoulton]

Glad to live here in the U.S. Although it looks like my kids will not know it like I do.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by manta49

There have being a few cases recently were house owners have stabbed buglers to death. No charges were brought judged to be self defence.

There have also been recent cases where homeowners (or occupants) have defended themselves against armed invaders, and the resident/victim has been sent to prison.

That's simply not right.

[ScottRiqui]

British citizens have the right to self defence just the same as America. They can use reasonable force that can include lethal force.

Well, you'd never know it from some of the other cases the article referenced. I thought this was the most egregious one:


"In 2009, the millionaire businessman Munir Hussain fought back with a metal pole and a cricket bat against a knife-wielding burglar who tied up his family at their home in Buckinghamshire. Hussain was jailed for two and a half years, despite his attacker being spared prison."

EDIT - Looking further into the case, the sticking point seems to be that the homeowner and his brother chased one of the robbers away, and then caught up to him and beat him nearly to death, causing the prosecutors to portray it as a "revenge" or "vigilante" attack, rather than simple self-defense.

[Arizona Smithshooter]

The Tony Martin story that happened in 1999 explained in this video:

http://transsylvaniaphoenix.blogspot...heir-guns.html

[KyJim]

So, are you all saying crime is worse in England than it is here in the U.S.?

Yes it is, both violent crime rates and total crime rates are considerably higher. Take a look at this recent thread: http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=italian+study

Now, I'm not going off on the deep end on this one just yet. Were they armed or did they take any threatening actions? Even in the U.S. those are factors to be weighed unless the resident lives in a state with the Castle Doctrine. I believe in application of the Castle Doctrine but this situation may or may not be as bad as it seems at first light.

[hermannr]

You might also add that violent crime is higher in the UK than it is in the EU and the US (same study as quoted by Jim above)

[BGutzman]

So, are you all saying crime is worse in England than it is here in the U.S.?

I did a research paper on it about a year and a half ago and yes it is worse... The govenment actually turns a blind eye to the local stations that fiddle with what is considered a violent crime to get to the statistics they want... Its not that they dont have a set standard just it seems few if any follow it... all about being pc...

[noelf2]

British citizens have the right to self defence just the same as America. They can use reasonable force that can include lethal force.

In some cases it seems so, but it's not "just the same". Not even close.

Even in the U.S. those are factors to be weighed unless the resident lives in a state with the Castle Doctrine. I believe in application of the Castle Doctrine but this situation may or may not be as bad as it seems at first light.

You don't need castle doctrine if you have good case law. At the moment, the UK has some very poor case law as it applies to the victims of robbery and violent crime when they maim or kill the perpetrator(s), but sounds like they're making strides to recognize rights to self defense.

[Nathan]

Maybe the regular British ought to follow the lead of us Yanks and try to get their country back!

Taking guns away is always a solution of economics. Basically when you divide the classes, anybody of moderate wealth on up get protected. The middle class generally protected by their location. The rich are highly protected by their access to security with guns, location and distance from commoners.

It is the people of poor to average income who successfully defend themselves daily in the US and should be doing the same in England. In addition, if those people understood their numbers compared to those of the rich or ruling classes, they would see that rebellion is quite possible.

[Bear River]

The Brits gave up their arms to protect the Royals. The Royals in England were afraid of the British people during the Russian revolution. The English Royals saw what happened to their Russian cousins. The British people gave up their arms for the Royals safety. They gave up their guns in order to keep Prince Chas.

[FoghornLeghorn]

So, are you all saying crime is worse in England than it is here in the U.S.?

Absolutely not. The British are saying crime is worse in England than in the US.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...frica-U-S.html

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

The article is from '09. Their situation hasn't improved.

[BlueTrain]

I was in the UK last year and saw no evidence that crime is any worse there than here. Of course my sampling was small and I also think Washinton, D.C., is a nice town.

Of course, the U.K. has a castle doctrine. I've seen the castles.

You also have to consider British history all by itself, too. They killed one of their kings, you may recall and what they got instead was barely more tolerable. So when Cromwell died, they went back to a monarchy. There have been attempts on the monarch's life since then, too. Six or eight in the case of Victoria. Just about as many as there have been on the president's life in this country since then. Some consider that a Bad Thing.

Usually when a politician make crime and public order an election issue, he doesn't have anything better to talk about. The last presidential candidate to do that was Richard Nixon.

[Double Naught Spy]

There have also been recent cases where homeowners (or occupants) have defended themselves against armed invaders, and the resident/victim has been sent to prison.

That's simply not right.

England has rules of engagment for this sort of thing as does the US, but they differ. Break the laws for those ROEs in either place and you get busted. That is how it works.


So, Englanders broke the law. What's the problem? After all, the people of England don't seem to terribly distressed by such laws and are not diligently working to have them overturned. There is no large movement afoot to do this.