Pressure Signs in Marlin 1895

300magman · May 5, 2011, 05:27 PM

As I can't judge by sticky bolt lift, and pressures probably won't be reaching levels that will show the beginnings of flattened primers...what other indicators become the first signs of excess pressure, in a Marlin 1895 in 45/70.

I want to run some 300 (or 325gr) bullets as hot as I can, but I don't want to push an action that is only medium strength at best.
How do I stay safe while testing the upper limits in this cartrige/rifle combo?

80viking · May 5, 2011, 11:12 PM

Close examination of the primer will still show pressure signs even with the lower pressure rifle cartridges. When you examine a primer in one of these concentrate on just the round edge. Look for a sharper transition as pressure increases. Comparing with a modern load like the Winchester or Federal 300gr factory 45/70 load will be helpfull.

**Unclenick** · May 6, 2011, 01:36 PM

Read through my list of pressure signs, here. Unique to lever guns are lever kick followed by being unable to reclose the action on the fired case, and sudden case growth increase due to the sides of the receiver stretching and letting the bolt move back because that stretches the locking lug back with it. Theoretically, that last symptom is possible with any receiver whose locking lugs are at the rear of the bolt, but I only recall hearing of it in lever actions. It's one of the high pressure signs M.L. McPherson uses, but I wouldn't load as warm as he does. If you get sudden length increase in the case as the charge weight increments up, I'd fire no more and knock the load down at least 5%.

temmi · May 6, 2011, 01:59 PM

Unclenick,

THANKS!

I have wonder and worried.

Now I know.

Snake

hornetguy · May 6, 2011, 04:30 PM

While I understand wanting to get max performance from any cartridge, do you really think there will be any difference in results with a 50fps increase?
I think you should stay comfortably within the recommended load levels in good manuals. Usually there is a point of sharply diminishing returns when adding more powder.
A 300gr bullet at 1800-1900 fps will do everything that the same bullet will do at 2000 fps, with less wear and tear on the rifle, brass, and shooter.
An animal will not see any difference in "smack" with a load that is just under maximum, versus one that is just teetering on the edge of "too much".

When you buy your new Corolla, you know it CAN go 110 mph, but not many people will drive it at max speeds wherever they go. It's just not wise.

totaldla · May 6, 2011, 08:31 PM

I'll second what hornetguy said.

Classic noob mistake with the 45-70 is to try to turn it into something it's not. If you want a .458mag - buy one.

You can't flatten the trajectory of the 45-70 no matter how hard you push it. So don't ruin your rifle trying.

Edward429451 · May 6, 2011, 09:05 PM

There's no harm in starting low and working up.

chiefr · May 6, 2011, 09:46 PM

I remember back around 1972 when the ressurection of the 45-70 began. Marlin came out with the first 1895s and I had to have one. People were using Win 1886 data to develop loads as very little load data was available for the Marlin 1895 back then. The only factory ammo available back in the early seventies was the slow 405 grainers safe for the trapdoor springfields. I too used 1886 data with my Marlin and never went close to max. Later plenty of 1895 reload data became available. Despite a plethora of new data that became available as these rifles became very popular, I personally refused to get close to max.
Having said all of that, my main reason for avoiding max loads with this rifle was some pictures I saw of a blown up Marlin 1985 along and a story to go with the pics, a year or two after the gun was introduced. As only 1886 data was available at that time, the guy who kaboomed his Marlin thought the action was modern and strong enough to make some "really hot loads"
I am of the opinion that lever gun actions are inherently weak when compared to bolt guns and certain single shots.
I concur fully with totaldla's post

Paul B. · May 7, 2011, 05:00 PM

"Classic noob mistake with the 45-70 is to try to turn it into something it's not. If you want a .458mag - buy one.'

Or buy a Ruger #1 in 45-70. They'll digest loads that will make that old round sing.

In allseriousness though, you should be able to work up to loads used in the .450 Marlin. However, a fairly decent reasonably low pressure load would be the Lyman #457122 hollow point bullet over 17.0 gr. og SR4759. I got 1.5" groups from my 1895 Marlin with that load and 1.25" groups from my Ruger #1S. My 500 gr. load for that rifle will get your attention.
Paul B.

Clark · May 8, 2011, 12:31 AM

Joe at Realguns wanted to know how hot his 45/70 loads were in his Marling guide gun, so he got a Ruger #1 and put strain gauges on it to work up loads for the Marlin.

Joe is a good engineer, and he has his own path.

I would have just bought extra guide gun and tried to blow it up.

I have experimentally gone past double Ruger #1 loads in my Handi Rifle [not against my shoulder], but I can't take the recoil on my shoulder from Trapdoor loads.

Hot loads in a 45/70 are serious recoil.

Edward429451 · May 8, 2011, 11:59 AM

...and yet, medium loads in a 45/70 are serious medicine.

flashhole · May 8, 2011, 12:19 PM

2000 fps is not a challenge with 300 grain bullets in a Marlin 1895. I get 1960 fps with 350 grain bullets in my ported short-barreled Guide Gun using H-4895 powder staying within safe pressure limits. An extra few inches on the barrel would easily push it over 2000 fps.

300magman · May 8, 2011, 07:39 PM

Thanks for all the tips guys, & Unclenick that first reply of your was very informative.

300magman · May 8, 2011, 07:49 PM

Quote:

While I understand wanting to get max performance from any cartridge, do you really think there will be any difference in results with a 50fps increase?
A 300gr bullet at 1800-1900 fps will do everything that the same bullet will do at 2000 fps, with less wear and tear on the rifle, brass, and shooter.
An animal will not see any difference in "smack" with a load that is just under maximum, versus one that is just teetering on the edge of "too much".

When you buy your new Corolla, you know it CAN go 110 mph, but not many people will drive it at max speeds wherever they go. It's just not wise.

See, now this just illustrates an entirely different mindset. I am NOT saying that it is wrong, just very different...You see, I'm not a Corolla guy, and I can tell you that my vintage firebird will do 167 because I take it there every chance I get (on the track of course) and it will do it everyday without tearing itself apart, because I built it that way.

The same for my shooting, I do not plan to run hot loads that are on the edge of tearing my marlin apart, but I do plan to try many different combinations of primer, powders, cases, and bullets until I find the one that runs the flattest (out to 250 yards) without showing signs of excess pressures.

300magman · May 8, 2011, 09:21 PM

Though I am seeking the highest safe velocity, I was also asking the opening question just to be cautious.
I own 3 manuals:
1) Modern Reloading Volume 2 - 300gr Jacketed Bullet (Lever Gun section)
Fastest Attainable Velocity 2245fps

2) Hornady Handbook 8th Edition - 300gr Bullet (Marlin section)
Fastest Attainable Velocity 2100fps

3) Speer #14 - 300gr Speer Bullet (Lever Gun section)
Fastest Attainable Velocity 2001fps

There is also a large descrepancy between manuals, even comparing the same powder. For example Hornady's fastest load was IMR 4198 with 48.7gr producing 2100 fps and the minimum load for that powder being 35.8gr, good for 1600 fps
Switch over to Speer #14 and the max load for IMR4198 is ONLY 43gr producing 1762fps
Over to Modern Reloading and max load is EVEN LOWER at 41.2gr but it produces 1880fps

May 6, 2011, 01:36 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Read through my list of pressure signs, here. Unique to lever guns are lever kick followed by being unable to reclose the action on the fired case, and sudden case growth increase due to the sides of the receiver stretching and letting the bolt move back because that stretches the locking lug back with it. Theoretically, that last symptom is possible with any receiver whose locking lugs are at the rear of the bolt, but I only recall hearing of it in lever actions. It's one of the high pressure signs M.L. McPherson uses, but I wouldn't load as warm as he does. If you get sudden length increase in the case as the charge weight increments up, I'd fire no more and knock the load down at least 5%. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 6, 2011, 08:31 PM	#6
totaldla Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2009 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 1,295	I'll second what hornetguy said. Classic noob mistake with the 45-70 is to try to turn it into something it's not. If you want a .458mag - buy one. You can't flatten the trajectory of the 45-70 no matter how hard you push it. So don't ruin your rifle trying. __________________ Lee Auto Bench Prime Castor Oil Case Lube

May 6, 2011, 09:46 PM	#8
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	I remember back around 1972 when the ressurection of the 45-70 began. Marlin came out with the first 1895s and I had to have one. People were using Win 1886 data to develop loads as very little load data was available for the Marlin 1895 back then. The only factory ammo available back in the early seventies was the slow 405 grainers safe for the trapdoor springfields. I too used 1886 data with my Marlin and never went close to max. Later plenty of 1895 reload data became available. Despite a plethora of new data that became available as these rifles became very popular, I personally refused to get close to max. Having said all of that, my main reason for avoiding max loads with this rifle was some pictures I saw of a blown up Marlin 1985 along and a story to go with the pics, a year or two after the gun was introduced. As only 1886 data was available at that time, the guy who kaboomed his Marlin thought the action was modern and strong enough to make some "really hot loads" I am of the opinion that lever gun actions are inherently weak when compared to bolt guns and certain single shots. I concur fully with totaldla's post Last edited by chiefr; May 6, 2011 at 10:04 PM.

May 7, 2011, 05:00 PM	#9
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	"Classic noob mistake with the 45-70 is to try to turn it into something it's not. If you want a .458mag - buy one.' Or buy a Ruger #1 in 45-70. They'll digest loads that will make that old round sing. In allseriousness though, you should be able to work up to loads used in the .450 Marlin. However, a fairly decent reasonably low pressure load would be the Lyman #457122 hollow point bullet over 17.0 gr. og SR4759. I got 1.5" groups from my 1895 Marlin with that load and 1.25" groups from my Ruger #1S. My 500 gr. load for that rifle will get your attention. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

May 8, 2011, 12:31 AM	#10
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Joe at Realguns wanted to know how hot his 45/70 loads were in his Marling guide gun, so he got a Ruger #1 and put strain gauges on it to work up loads for the Marlin. Joe is a good engineer, and he has his own path. I would have just bought extra guide gun and tried to blow it up. I have experimentally gone past double Ruger #1 loads in my Handi Rifle [not against my shoulder], but I can't take the recoil on my shoulder from Trapdoor loads. Hot loads in a 45/70 are serious recoil. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

May 5, 2011, 05:27 PM	#1
300magman Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Posts: 714	Pressure Signs in Marlin 1895 As I can't judge by sticky bolt lift, and pressures probably won't be reaching levels that will show the beginnings of flattened primers...what other indicators become the first signs of excess pressure, in a Marlin 1895 in 45/70. I want to run some 300 (or 325gr) bullets as hot as I can, but I don't want to push an action that is only medium strength at best. How do I stay safe while testing the upper limits in this cartrige/rifle combo?

May 5, 2011, 11:12 PM	#2
80viking Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Location: The Peoples Republic of Massac Posts: 333	Close examination of the primer will still show pressure signs even with the lower pressure rifle cartridges. When you examine a primer in one of these concentrate on just the round edge. Look for a sharper transition as pressure increases. Comparing with a modern load like the Winchester or Federal 300gr factory 45/70 load will be helpfull.

May 6, 2011, 01:59 PM	#4
temmi Senior Member Join Date: June 13, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 531	Unclenick, THANKS! I have wonder and worried. Now I know. Snake

May 6, 2011, 04:30 PM	#5
hornetguy Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2011 Location: on the north side of DFW Posts: 970	While I understand wanting to get max performance from any cartridge, do you really think there will be any difference in results with a 50fps increase? I think you should stay comfortably within the recommended load levels in good manuals. Usually there is a point of sharply diminishing returns when adding more powder. A 300gr bullet at 1800-1900 fps will do everything that the same bullet will do at 2000 fps, with less wear and tear on the rifle, brass, and shooter. An animal will not see any difference in "smack" with a load that is just under maximum, versus one that is just teetering on the edge of "too much". When you buy your new Corolla, you know it CAN go 110 mph, but not many people will drive it at max speeds wherever they go. It's just not wise.

May 6, 2011, 09:05 PM	#7
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	There's no harm in starting low and working up.

May 8, 2011, 11:59 AM	#11
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	...and yet, medium loads in a 45/70 are serious medicine.

May 8, 2011, 12:19 PM	#12
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	2000 fps is not a challenge with 300 grain bullets in a Marlin 1895. I get 1960 fps with 350 grain bullets in my ported short-barreled Guide Gun using H-4895 powder staying within safe pressure limits. An extra few inches on the barrel would easily push it over 2000 fps. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

May 8, 2011, 07:39 PM	#13
300magman Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Posts: 714	Thanks for all the tips guys, & Unclenick that first reply of your was very informative.

May 8, 2011, 09:21 PM	#15
300magman Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Posts: 714	Though I am seeking the highest safe velocity, I was also asking the opening question just to be cautious. I own 3 manuals: 1) Modern Reloading Volume 2 - 300gr Jacketed Bullet (Lever Gun section) Fastest Attainable Velocity 2245fps 2) Hornady Handbook 8th Edition - 300gr Bullet (Marlin section) Fastest Attainable Velocity 2100fps 3) Speer #14 - 300gr Speer Bullet (Lever Gun section) Fastest Attainable Velocity 2001fps There is also a large descrepancy between manuals, even comparing the same powder. For example Hornady's fastest load was IMR 4198 with 48.7gr producing 2100 fps and the minimum load for that powder being 35.8gr, good for 1600 fps Switch over to Speer #14 and the max load for IMR4198 is ONLY 43gr producing 1762fps Over to Modern Reloading and max load is EVEN LOWER at 41.2gr but it produces 1880fps