Do/should CCWs call the police after every incident?

Ices · February 12, 2006, 07:00 PM

I've read many incidents of people needing to draw on a threat, just to have the threat run away. However, I never read of whether or not they called the police afterwards. I don't have a permit (i'm 20, and in MD), so there is a lot I don't know about CCW. Is it a standard procedure to call the cops after every incident in which you need to draw?

Jkwas · February 12, 2006, 07:07 PM

We were instructed that any incident involving the drawing or display of your weapon requires that you call the police. Two reasons: First, the person you drew on can't claim you were brandishing and you have your side of the story on record, second: If there's a trouble maker out there, they want to talk to him before he accosts someone else. Just common sense really.

Sir William · February 12, 2006, 07:35 PM

The Good Samaritan is the exception rather than the rule today. Lawsuits, video cameras, video vigilantes and the ignorant application of human rights to criminals demands we report. There are 2 sides, the one with the best documentation is often the one given credence, irregardless of truth.

TexasSIGMan · February 12, 2006, 07:39 PM

First one to call gets to set the tone for the rest of the story.

Which scenario below would you rather be in the middle of?

You have to draw your weapon during a road rage incident, the other guy runs off. You call police, calmly describe the incident and give your name.

You have to draw your weapon during a road rage incident, the other guy runs off but calls the cops, screaming about some guy in the intersection pulling a gun on him threatening to shoot everyone, and gives them your license plate.

You think he's gonna tell the cops it was his fault? Would a couple minutes on the phone be worth it?
Until and unless the other guy calls them they don't have a complainant anyway so nothing is going to happen to you. Be first to call in.

FireBreather01 · February 12, 2006, 07:44 PM

Absolutely, without question - do you want to be the one explaining why you were brandishing and making theatening gestures to all of the nice folks on the corner or in the convenience store? OR do you want to calmly call 911 and explain that you were threatened, stopped a crime, etc and would like a PO to come by and take a statement. It's much better doing it that way than being targeted for a felony stop by troopers or the police because 2 or 3 people called and claimed you are going to shoot up the area.

Action beats reaction - even for getting your side of the story out first!

KSFreeman · February 12, 2006, 08:03 PM

Yes.

Do not believe the media/gun shop commando nonsense where people pull guns on each other and nothing happens.

Hook686 · February 12, 2006, 09:02 PM

Today, 07:35 PM #3
Sir William
Senior Member

...

"... the ignorant application of human rights to criminals ...."

Is this another way of saying, "Justice is blind" ?

CraigJS · February 12, 2006, 09:07 PM

Also give a description of YOURSELF. A LEO comming onto any scene that involves a gun won't know who's the "good guy or who's the bad guy", just that someone has a gun. Ask them (the 911 op) to give YOUR description to the responding officers, and that your the good guy...

Ices · February 12, 2006, 09:10 PM

Thanks for the info. For some reason, I never thought of it that way (the BG calling the cops on ME if I felt threatened and needed to draw). Learn something new everyday.

riverrat66 · February 12, 2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

You have to draw your weapon during a road rage incident, the other guy runs off.

I'm having a problem with this "scenario". Why do you have to draw you weapon during any "road rage" incident unless you are being threatened with deadly physical harm? If the other guy is so "out of control wouldn't it be wiser to just remain in the car with the doors locked and call the police on your cell phone? Road rage is illegal! Why should you even be out of the vehicle risking your life at all? If the guy is threating you with deadly physical harm and you feel the need to draw your weapon then you shoot him dead, that's the reason you are carrying the weapon in the first place. You're not carrying the weapon to "scare" anyone. If you do not have the mindset or are not prepared to use it then you should not be carrying a handgun, period!

In answer to your question, yes you better call the police because in New York State it's "illegal to point a handgun at another person for the sole purpose of intimidating or scaring that person". So the other guy will probably have you arrested for pointing the handgun at him! That's the way it is in NYS!

TexasSIGMan · February 12, 2006, 10:05 PM

riverrat, you must not have anything better to do tonight, it's just an example of two different stories, not a tactics discussion or law class......

Ease up on the freaking out OK?

Just to keep you happy let's pretend you're still in the car and blocked in by 3 pickups full of pissed off rednecks.... feel better with the "scenario"?

And no you are not always justified in shooting just because you've drawn your gun, if you really want to hijack this guys thread. Pulling a gun is not always threatening deadly force. Oh you like bold too, so here...... Not all states have the same laws as you do in New York.

Texas Penal Code:

Quote:

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Quote:

If you do not have the mindset or are not prepared to use it then you should not be carrying a handgun, period!

Your mindset should be to protect yourself and stop the attack. If you can do so by presenting the weapon and not shooting, then you have done both the legal and moral thing. I guess there in New York you guys just look for excuses to shoot people?

riverrat66 · February 12, 2006, 11:53 PM

TexasSIGMan,

Who's freaking out? I'm just expressing my opinion. I thought that was what this forum was all about. I didn't paint that "scenario" you did. Of course there could be a million different scenarios that would call for a million different reactions.

I had no intention of hijacking this thread but you certainly jumped into it didn't you?

When carrying a weapon one should be responsible enough to avoid unnecessary conflict, especially a road rage incident. I was trained to only point my firearm at something I planned on shooting. I do not go around waving my firearm around trying to scare people. Evidently you guys in Texas do it just for kicks. I guess down there if some guy just happens to walk up to you and looks suspicious you draw on him just to scare him away. In other words, it's OK to point your gun at someone just because you're afraid! Regardless if he's threatened you with physical bodily harm or not!
I don't look for an excuse to shoot anyone. I've done it before and it's not a pleasant thing to do and I hope I don't have to do it again. If anything I'll do what ever I can do avoid a physical confrontation. You're so eager to point your handgun at everyone I'm wondering if you have the balls to actually pull the trigger!

Respectfully,
Riverrat66

PS, I've been carrying concealed for over 30 years, how about you?

TexasSIGMan · February 13, 2006, 12:07 AM

riverrat, none of that addresses the topic. Scenarios used to contrast the topic are not that big a deal.

In a million different scenarios, the question of whether or not you should use the phone should always generate the same answer. If you draw your weapon, be the first to call it in.

riverrat66 · February 13, 2006, 12:41 AM

Quote:

If you draw your weapon, be the first to call it in.

I agree 100%

TexasSIGMan · February 13, 2006, 12:44 AM

Cool

No offense intended by the way.

DerDer · February 13, 2006, 02:25 AM

I would recommend to all that you ALWAYS call the police after a minor incident. If you drive off there's really no chance of getting caught so just leave a little message. But it must be kept in mind nobody likes a tattle tale.

I never call the cops and regard as someone who does as an idiot.

Take care of your own business...You are a big boy now...

FireBreather01 · February 13, 2006, 02:48 AM

Quote:

I never call the cops and regard as someone who does as an idiot.

Well, to each - his own, - if you feel like sitting at a police station all day explaining why you shouldn't be ticketed for brandishing, assault, disorderly conduct - perhaps felony dc, losing your carry permit, posting bond, etc, etc, etc - then by all means don't be an idiot and call in something as minor as you feeling so threatened and endangered that you had to pull out your firearm.
Be my guest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And let us know how that works out for you!

rsmithsss · February 13, 2006, 07:11 AM

ABSOLUTELY- If you don't want to risk going to jail when the other party beats you to the phone!

invention_45 · February 13, 2006, 07:48 AM

Let me add this. Even if somebody, who knows that you carry, only threatens to report that you've "pulled a gun on them" when you actually haven't you need to document that with the police, or with the civil courts (restraining order) IMMEDIATELY. If anybody else heard that threat, write it up and ask them to sign/notarize it.

In Florida, failure to do this exposes you to a mandatory 3 year prison sentence of which you must serve 100%. And Florida's relatively gun-friendly.

So, if THAT can happen, you most certainly better report any instance wherein you need to legitimately use your gun as a defensive threat. You can be darn sure that if you don't, the police will suddenly become the BG's best friends, because he'll report it.

I'm not a lawyer, but I have some..er..experience in this general area.

BigFunWMU · February 13, 2006, 08:22 AM

A phone is mandatory if you carry a gun, and if you can afford a gun, you can afford a phone.

You do not even need a "plan" or to be signed up with a carrier to be able to call 911 from a cell phone. All you need is a phone, signal, and a charged battery.

invention_45: +1 for the documentation. If someone is out to make your life dificult and unpleasnt, leave a paper trail a mile long of you being the good guy/victim. A PPO is a good idea, as it casts a huge shadow of doubt on any future stunts by the other party, or any other party associated with them.

Mark54g · February 13, 2006, 08:25 AM

Just my 2 cents, but sometimes Road Rage is not a 2 sided event. Someone may not like how you are driving, period. They may think you slighted them because they missed their turn and it is YOUR fault because you didn't know they were trying to cut across three lanes of traffic. Now it is YOUR fault they will miss their Gloria Estefan concert...

So they corner you up and then get out of the car. Do you sit there while they come up to the window with a tire iron? I say no. They present a bludgeoning weapon and you call 911 and draw. There is no reason that you should have to take them on or simply wait like a caged rat. You do NOT have to shoot immediately. If they see you unholster and run, does it mean you were not prepared to shoot? I could definately see the anti-testosterone effects of a muzzle coming up to a car window to take the steam out of the head of a puzzled asshat who thought he had the upper hand in this. He then suddenly realized he had to leave...NOW.

brett23 · February 13, 2006, 09:10 AM

Mark54g

I agree completely, I understand the premise of "don't pull your weapon unless you are ready to shoot" but obviously a situtation such as you described is the perfect scenario for not shooting. I don't think the law would look kindly on shooting somebody in the back as they run away from you.

Jkwas · February 13, 2006, 10:15 AM

To me there is a difference between pulling a weapon and showing a weapon. If I was being approached in a parking lot, didn't like the looks of it, I would probably pull my gun, but keep it hidden behind me or in my pocket until i figured out what was going on.

If no one saw it, I wouldn't report it.

riverrat66 · February 13, 2006, 12:42 PM

Mark54g,
I agree but you are talking about yet another scenario. Someone coming at you with a tire iron does indeed "present a danger" and as you said "there is no reason that you should have to take them on or simply wait like a caged rat. " So what do you do? Either run or defend yourself! Well, you said you were cornered and this guy is full of "road rage" which in my understanding means he is totally out of control. Do you think pointing a gun at him will actually calm him down? He may get even madder and try to take the gun away from you and he may succeed because of that split second you're thinking about scaring him with the firearm not shooting.

I was originally talking about standing in some intersection waving a firearm at some guy because he's hollering at you during his road rage incident. I just didn't think that was justification for drawing ones firearm.

Quote:

I don't think the law would look kindly on shooting somebody in the back as they run away from you.

If they are running away the threat is no longer there.

Quote:

To me there is a difference between pulling a weapon and showing a weapon.

Jkwas,
I agree 100%

Mannlicher · February 13, 2006, 06:30 PM

the first 40 or 50 times I had to pull the Roscoe, yeah, I called the cops. Now though, I don't bother.

February 12, 2006, 07:00 PM	#1
Ices Member Join Date: January 23, 2006 Posts: 22	Do/should CCWs call the police after every incident? I've read many incidents of people needing to draw on a threat, just to have the threat run away. However, I never read of whether or not they called the police afterwards. I don't have a permit (i'm 20, and in MD), so there is a lot I don't know about CCW. Is it a standard procedure to call the cops after every incident in which you need to draw?

February 12, 2006, 07:07 PM	#2
Jkwas Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Mouth of the Rat, Florida Posts: 1,778	We were instructed that any incident involving the drawing or display of your weapon requires that you call the police. Two reasons: First, the person you drew on can't claim you were brandishing and you have your side of the story on record, second: If there's a trouble maker out there, they want to talk to him before he accosts someone else. Just common sense really. __________________ I grew up in New Jersey, but later moved to Florida and made a complete recovery. Keltec: The BIC lighter of handguns http://jkwasblog.blogspot.com/

February 12, 2006, 07:44 PM	#5
FireBreather01 Member Join Date: August 22, 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 44	Absolutely, without question - do you want to be the one explaining why you were brandishing and making theatening gestures to all of the nice folks on the corner or in the convenience store? OR do you want to calmly call 911 and explain that you were threatened, stopped a crime, etc and would like a PO to come by and take a statement. It's much better doing it that way than being targeted for a felony stop by troopers or the police because 2 or 3 people called and claimed you are going to shoot up the area. Action beats reaction - even for getting your side of the story out first! __________________ NRA Instructor, RSO, Lifer

February 12, 2006, 08:03 PM	#6
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Yes. Do not believe the media/gun shop commando nonsense where people pull guns on each other and nothing happens. __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

February 12, 2006, 09:02 PM	#7
Hook686 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2005 Location: USA The Great State of California Posts: 2,090	Today, 07:35 PM #3 Sir William Senior Member ... "... the ignorant application of human rights to criminals ...." Is this another way of saying, "Justice is blind" ? __________________ Hook686 When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.

February 12, 2006, 07:35 PM	#3
Sir William Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2004 Posts: 3,261	The Good Samaritan is the exception rather than the rule today. Lawsuits, video cameras, video vigilantes and the ignorant application of human rights to criminals demands we report. There are 2 sides, the one with the best documentation is often the one given credence, irregardless of truth.

February 12, 2006, 07:39 PM	#4
TexasSIGMan Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 139	First one to call gets to set the tone for the rest of the story. Which scenario below would you rather be in the middle of? You have to draw your weapon during a road rage incident, the other guy runs off. You call police, calmly describe the incident and give your name. You have to draw your weapon during a road rage incident, the other guy runs off but calls the cops, screaming about some guy in the intersection pulling a gun on him threatening to shoot everyone, and gives them your license plate. You think he's gonna tell the cops it was his fault? Would a couple minutes on the phone be worth it? Until and unless the other guy calls them they don't have a complainant anyway so nothing is going to happen to you. Be first to call in.

February 12, 2006, 09:07 PM	#8
CraigJS Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2005 Posts: 372	Also give a description of YOURSELF. A LEO comming onto any scene that involves a gun won't know who's the "good guy or who's the bad guy", just that someone has a gun. Ask them (the 911 op) to give YOUR description to the responding officers, and that your the good guy...

February 12, 2006, 09:10 PM	#9
Ices Member Join Date: January 23, 2006 Posts: 22	Thanks for the info. For some reason, I never thought of it that way (the BG calling the cops on ME if I felt threatened and needed to draw). Learn something new everyday.

February 12, 2006, 11:53 PM	#12
riverrat66 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2004 Location: Western New York Posts: 394	TexasSIGMan, Who's freaking out? I'm just expressing my opinion. I thought that was what this forum was all about. I didn't paint that "scenario" you did. Of course there could be a million different scenarios that would call for a million different reactions. I had no intention of hijacking this thread but you certainly jumped into it didn't you? When carrying a weapon one should be responsible enough to avoid unnecessary conflict, especially a road rage incident. I was trained to only point my firearm at something I planned on shooting. I do not go around waving my firearm around trying to scare people. Evidently you guys in Texas do it just for kicks. I guess down there if some guy just happens to walk up to you and looks suspicious you draw on him just to scare him away. In other words, it's OK to point your gun at someone just because you're afraid! Regardless if he's threatened you with physical bodily harm or not! I don't look for an excuse to shoot anyone. I've done it before and it's not a pleasant thing to do and I hope I don't have to do it again. If anything I'll do what ever I can do avoid a physical confrontation. You're so eager to point your handgun at everyone I'm wondering if you have the balls to actually pull the trigger! Respectfully, Riverrat66 PS, I've been carrying concealed for over 30 years, how about you?

February 13, 2006, 12:07 AM	#13
TexasSIGMan Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 139	riverrat, none of that addresses the topic. Scenarios used to contrast the topic are not that big a deal. In a million different scenarios, the question of whether or not you should use the phone should always generate the same answer. If you draw your weapon, be the first to call it in.

February 13, 2006, 12:44 AM	#15
TexasSIGMan Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 139	Cool No offense intended by the way.

February 13, 2006, 02:25 AM	#16
DerDer Registration in progress Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: Tampa, Fl Posts: 56	I would recommend to all that you ALWAYS call the police after a minor incident. If you drive off there's really no chance of getting caught so just leave a little message. But it must be kept in mind nobody likes a tattle tale. I never call the cops and regard as someone who does as an idiot. Take care of your own business...You are a big boy now...

February 13, 2006, 07:11 AM	#18
rsmithsss Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 103	ABSOLUTELY- If you don't want to risk going to jail when the other party beats you to the phone! __________________ I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it. Beretta 92G 9mm SW1911PD .45 Ruger Security Six 6" .357 Ruger P345 .45ACP Romanian WASR-10 AK47 Benelli Super Black Eagle 12ga SS SW LS60 .357 Ruger .22 Race Rifle LE Kel-Tec P3AT .380 Benelli B76 9mm Remington 870 Tactical Green Sig 229SL-no rail

February 13, 2006, 07:48 AM	#19
invention_45 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Broward County Posts: 972	Let me add this. Even if somebody, who knows that you carry, only threatens to report that you've "pulled a gun on them" when you actually haven't you need to document that with the police, or with the civil courts (restraining order) IMMEDIATELY. If anybody else heard that threat, write it up and ask them to sign/notarize it. In Florida, failure to do this exposes you to a mandatory 3 year prison sentence of which you must serve 100%. And Florida's relatively gun-friendly. So, if THAT can happen, you most certainly better report any instance wherein you need to legitimately use your gun as a defensive threat. You can be darn sure that if you don't, the police will suddenly become the BG's best friends, because he'll report it. I'm not a lawyer, but I have some..er..experience in this general area.

February 13, 2006, 08:22 AM	#20
BigFunWMU Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2005 Posts: 304	A phone is mandatory if you carry a gun, and if you can afford a gun, you can afford a phone. You do not even need a "plan" or to be signed up with a carrier to be able to call 911 from a cell phone. All you need is a phone, signal, and a charged battery. invention_45: +1 for the documentation. If someone is out to make your life dificult and unpleasnt, leave a paper trail a mile long of you being the good guy/victim. A PPO is a good idea, as it casts a huge shadow of doubt on any future stunts by the other party, or any other party associated with them. __________________ "Anarchism is founded on the observation that since few men are wise enough to rule themselves, even fewer are wise enough to rule others." - Edward Abbey

February 13, 2006, 08:25 AM	#21
Mark54g Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Location: NJ Posts: 1,265	Just my 2 cents, but sometimes Road Rage is not a 2 sided event. Someone may not like how you are driving, period. They may think you slighted them because they missed their turn and it is YOUR fault because you didn't know they were trying to cut across three lanes of traffic. Now it is YOUR fault they will miss their Gloria Estefan concert... So they corner you up and then get out of the car. Do you sit there while they come up to the window with a tire iron? I say no. They present a bludgeoning weapon and you call 911 and draw. There is no reason that you should have to take them on or simply wait like a caged rat. You do NOT have to shoot immediately. If they see you unholster and run, does it mean you were not prepared to shoot? I could definately see the anti-testosterone effects of a muzzle coming up to a car window to take the steam out of the head of a puzzled asshat who thought he had the upper hand in this. He then suddenly realized he had to leave...NOW. __________________ CZ 75B Stainless Beretta PX4 F Series 9mm & U22 Neos 6" black S&W Shield 9mm

February 13, 2006, 09:10 AM	#22
brett23 Junior member Join Date: July 17, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 82	Mark54g I agree completely, I understand the premise of "don't pull your weapon unless you are ready to shoot" but obviously a situtation such as you described is the perfect scenario for not shooting. I don't think the law would look kindly on shooting somebody in the back as they run away from you.

February 13, 2006, 10:15 AM	#23
Jkwas Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Mouth of the Rat, Florida Posts: 1,778	To me there is a difference between pulling a weapon and showing a weapon. If I was being approached in a parking lot, didn't like the looks of it, I would probably pull my gun, but keep it hidden behind me or in my pocket until i figured out what was going on. If no one saw it, I wouldn't report it. __________________ I grew up in New Jersey, but later moved to Florida and made a complete recovery. Keltec: The BIC lighter of handguns http://jkwasblog.blogspot.com/

February 13, 2006, 06:30 PM	#25
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,208	the first 40 or 50 times I had to pull the Roscoe, yeah, I called the cops. Now though, I don't bother. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

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