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January 28, 2013, 11:02 AM | #176 |
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When I was a kid something like Columbine never happened. That's why Columbine was such a big deal, it had never happened.
I remember my Ag Teacher, he had a rifle and a shotgun both in a gun rack in the window of his truck. He drove that truck to school every school-day and his guns were never touched by anyone but him. I long for those days
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January 28, 2013, 11:10 AM | #177 |
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I don't know when you were a kid, but there have been a metric ass-load of school shootings in the U.S. over the years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States Columbine may have been the one with the most fatalities at a high school up to that point, but that's just a matter of scale - it wasn't fundamentally "new" or "unique". Columbine probably sticks in our mind more for the news coverage than any other reason, since it happened in the era of the 24-hour news cycle AND the World Wide Web. |
January 28, 2013, 11:15 AM | #178 |
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I am not sure I would use such a superlative term to describe an average between one and two per year (based on your link).
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January 28, 2013, 11:20 AM | #179 |
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I never said they happened frequently - just that they were nothing new by the time the Columbine shooting happened. In making that point, it's not the rate of shootings that's important, just the fact that there had already been 100+ of them.
Granted, most of those weren't mass shootings, but there had been several mass shootings before Columbine as well. |
January 28, 2013, 11:25 AM | #180 | |
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You used the term,
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January 28, 2013, 11:52 AM | #181 |
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Not by any definition of "superlative" I've ever seen.
Regardless, my point wasn't that school shootings happen frequently, and I never claimed they do. I was just asserting that there have been a lot of them over the years, many of them occurring before Columbine. |
January 28, 2013, 12:31 PM | #182 |
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I don't doubt it, nor do I doubt that the combination of 24 hour news and internet coverage did more to cement Columbine into the collective conscious.
However, I do think lcpiper is also partially right. I don't think the previous instances had seen two juveniles from the afflicted school premeditate an all-out assault involving not just multiple handguns and long arms, but also explosives used in a tactical manner. |
January 28, 2013, 12:42 PM | #183 |
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Agreed, although if you add enough qualifiers, *any* shooting can be made to sound "unique" and original, or the "most deadly".
Charles Whitman (The UT Austin sniper) had three rifles, three pistols, a shotgun and a machete, killed 16 people and injured 32. And that was 33 years before Columbine. Columbine wasn't the "most deadly" school shooting, unless you qualify it as the "most deadly high school shooting". So that's exactly what the media did. Talk about grasping for superlatives - that's the media's stock-in-trade. |
January 28, 2013, 01:00 PM | #184 | |
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ScottRiqui, the opening line from your own quoted source of info.
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Try not to get wrapped up in the details, the point isn't which was the first or the worst. The point is that it just didn't happen at all. If there was a shooting at a school it was about drugs, not someone whacked in the head kid looking for 30 days of glory. The UT shooting was a different matter and very unique. He was an ex-Marine if I recall correctly? A Vet that came back from a war at a time when Vets didn't get nice welcome homes. I joined the Army in 1981 and still even then we were told "Not" to where our uniform down town because the locals might try to kick your ass or something.
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January 28, 2013, 01:06 PM | #185 |
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And if you read the rest of the sentence, it goes on to list four of them, and those aren't the only four. My point is still that Columbine really wasn't anything fundamentally new or unique, even compared to incidents that happened decades earlier.
Granted, there were interesting differences (two shooters versus one, the attempted wide use of explosives, high school versus college, etcetera), but those are largely inconsequential to the big picture. You say that things like Columbine "just didn't happen" back then, but read up on the four shooting listed at the start of the article I linked to (Olean, Fullerton, UT Austin and Cleveland Elementary) and then re-evaluate that. Except for the Cleveland Elementary shooting in 1979, all of them happened before you graduated high school in 1978. EDIT - The UT shooting wasn't unique, at least not because of Whitman being a Marine returning to the US under hostile circumstances. He never went overseas and never saw combat. He was discharged from the Marines after never having gotten further from home than Camp Lejeune. Whitman probably did what he did as the result of a brain tumor, or he was just a random whacko, just like the ones we have today. Last edited by ScottRiqui; January 28, 2013 at 01:14 PM. |
January 28, 2013, 01:16 PM | #186 |
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Ummm, it says a handfull, spread out from 1927 to 1989, that's close to 60 years.
Now, we are getting them every few months and it's not from scarred war-vets. It's High School aged kids going for some kind of glory spree, BatMan FFS. If the difference between law abiding citizen and criminal is the capacity or ability to act then motivation is a key feature to the problem. If this is true, then figure out what is motivating these people and dampen that **** down. It would do a lot more toward prevention then background checks ever have or will.
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January 28, 2013, 01:21 PM | #187 |
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Again, read about those four shootings right at the beginning of the linked article (Olean, UT, Fullerton and Cleveland Elementary), and then come back here and tell me that the "whackadoodle school shooter" is a new phenomenon. They were all between 1966 and 1979, so they're right in that part of your youth when you're claiming that things like that "just didn't happen".
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January 28, 2013, 01:41 PM | #188 |
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I am reading them and I see the Orlean School shooting was a suicidal kid that couldn't do it himself so he wanted the cops to do it for him(suicide by cop).
The Fullerton shooting was a 37 year old deranged dude that was shooting fellow staff members at his place of work which happened to be a school, he shot no kids, he was shooting the guys who were "making his wife do pornos". Brenda Spencer in the Cleavland School shooting, no motive determined, nothing to go on except that it happened. And the Kehoe Bombing, a 55 year old out of luck dude who was financially ruined and suicidal. Again it doesn't fit at all. 2 out of 5 come close, one has no motive at all that is remotely solid and the other is "Suicide by Cop". Where is Fame and Glory in any of these? You should not make the error that the multiple deaths, or a school location in any way is relevant to the killings happening today.
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January 28, 2013, 01:46 PM | #189 |
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You're attributing the motives of "fame and glory" to shooters like the ones at Columbine and Aurora, but you may be putting words into their mouths. We don't know much about the "why" of Aurora yet, and I don't remember Kliebold (sp?) and Harris leaving behind notes as to why they did what they did.
Regardless, no sane shooter is going to do something like that solely for the "fame and glory". They're screwed in the head, so even trying to attribute motive is dicey at best. |
January 28, 2013, 02:10 PM | #190 |
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They weren't combat vets, or 37 year olds that thought other guys were making their wifes do pornos. Nor were they destitute 55 year olds facing the end of their financially ruined lives.
You will always have forlorn, lost and hurt souls. But something today is very different from 20+ years ago and the only one of any of these "famous" cases I knew of growing up was the UT shooting in 66, I was 6 years old and lived in Lubbock, Texas. That one has been shown on the tube lot since I was a 6 year old.
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January 28, 2013, 02:47 PM | #191 | ||
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PS Just because someone was soldier and had being shot at doesn't mean they would be a good choice to guard children. Quote. An American soldier walked off his base in a remote southern Afghan village shortly before dawn Sunday and opened fire on civilians inside their homes, killing at least 16, including ( nine children ) . Last edited by manta49; January 28, 2013 at 03:09 PM. |
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January 28, 2013, 03:14 PM | #192 | ||||||||||||
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“A prior restraint, by contrast and by definition, has an immediate and irreversible sanction.” You can in no way demonstrate this to be true in regard to instant checks. The NFA, sure it is a terrible abomination that needs to disappear and is a huge restraint. Quote:
However since you brought it and the data is a “gold mine” let us go back and look at it again: According to the survey (which I believe to be fraught with error) the method of acquiring weapons changed from nearly 21% in 1991 to less than 14% in 1997 through retail sales. If true data, this is a huge shift a 33% drop. Now why would that be? Any idea on how to account for that? I can give you a good solid theory: Background checks. The barriers put in place during that time forced a shift in the way criminals acquired guns. Quote:
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Now that you are NOT running a gun shop but that you simply offered a gun for sale (say an online ad). You are not acting as an agent for a business. Just you. If you offer and he accepts now you must sell regardless of whatever misgivings you might have if this protected activity right? Quote:
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The mistaken belief that you have to a cop, shop keep, agent or whatever to violate civil rights is incorrect. If I stand outside of a polling place with a baseball bat and try to influence your vote through fear and intimidation that is a civil rights violation (regardless of whatever the current AG thinks). I’d like to know now what your answer to the above scenario on gun pruchases will be as this is the resolution to most of this argument. You should already see where this is going. Your answer will also show where your real interests lie in regard to freedom.
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January 28, 2013, 03:26 PM | #193 |
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What it says Manta is that America, like many other countries, is unique and has it's own set of unique problems.
We are working to deal with them in our way. BTW, I recall North Ireland has it's own issues with violence and security. But more then a history lesson what I really remember is flying into Shannon Airport with a scheduled 2.5 hour layover, disembarking, grabbing a couple of smokes to get my nicotine levels back in balance, and just when I was ready to try my first meal in Ireland we were mysteriously called back to the plane to continue our flight to Kuwait. It was the shortest 2.5 hour layover of my entire life I think. I also remember several less then friendly faces at the airport. The kind of faces you see from people who discover bubblegum on the bottom of their shoes. Are there increasing anti-American sentiments in Ireland these days that you know of?
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January 28, 2013, 03:53 PM | #194 | ||
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How is this even remotely related to instant background checks? Quote:
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January 28, 2013, 03:57 PM | #195 |
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I didn't have to go through customs cause it was a layover, not a stop. I didn't even have to present ID. Military Flight full of contractors and soldiers en-route to Iraq and Afghanistan.
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January 28, 2013, 04:04 PM | #196 | |
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January 28, 2013, 04:29 PM | #197 | ||
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There are lots of American tourists, and students in N Ireland universities. Quote:
and deaths there was never the need for security in schools. PS I think there was a bit of concern in the Republic of Ireland about the issue bellow. HUMAN rights groups have called on the Government to introduce measures to ensure Ireland can no longer be used for illegal rendition flights, after fresh evidence emerged that US authorities operated such missions through Shannon Airport over the past decade. Last edited by manta49; January 28, 2013 at 04:37 PM. |
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January 28, 2013, 04:44 PM | #198 | ||||||||||
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Let's take another look at one of the citations you provided. I'll add a little emphasis. Quote:
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Oh, and just as an aside, that's a criminal statute that you summarized, not a civil one. Quote:
Like it or not, the constitution still doesn't regulate activities between individuals. Some statutes do, but the U.S. Constitution does not. Yeah, I see where it's going. You're perfectly willing to try to appease the anti-2A crowd, no matter what you're faced with. I'm not.
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January 28, 2013, 04:47 PM | #199 | ||
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January 28, 2013, 04:50 PM | #200 |
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In further consideration.... Emotionally, I agree with the incrementalism argument. I still don't agree with the prior restraint argument. But given what is coming at us, I'm feeling more and more reluctant concede anything.
With that said, I believe that a person is responsible to do their "due diligence" when transferring a firearm and have consequences if they don't. How would we accomplish this without yielding too much to the anti's-agenda? |
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