MODERN DAY 9mm vs .357 vs .40 SW vs .45 ACP JHP

[Socrates]

Close. I could never figure out the advantages of using those, when for well under half the price you can use hard cast lead, provided they feed.

Problem is, not enough options in the flat nosed market...

[ghalleen]

These are all good defensive rounds, as long as you're using modern defensive ammunition. 20-30 years ago, the 9mm was inadequate because of the available ammo.

Use the one you feel comfortable with, can shoot well, and is readily available at stores in your area.

For me, I like .45 acp and .357 magnum.

[Socrates]

You know I reloaded back in those days, 9mm as well, and, I'll say the stuff was very hot, and the guns were setup for hot.

My friend bought a new Sig, and he wanted some ammo for it, so I reloaded a Maximum load, with a 115 grain hollow point. He came back, said,
"Here, you go shoot it."

Pull the trigger bang. Slide didn't even move. To even cycle the action I had to load maximum level loads with 130 grain bullets for reliable cycling. Don't remember any bullets over 130 grains being around at the time, so you maybe right on that end.

We used to cut our own X bullets in commercial jacketed hollow points to insure expansion in deer. That guy Fuzzy used to do the same with the Safestops, except just one cut. Can't do that with an auto.

My friends swear by flatnosed LFN bullets for hunting, or, for defense, .45 Caliber truncated cones...

[snakebuster]

yeah, what HE said!!! Use one weapon, and use it well.

[PinkPuddin]

Great thread. I have enjoyed this entire conversation. Just for the record I am XD 45 4" TAP 230 ACP+P 230 grain FPD under the arm and XD 9mm 3" TAP 147 FPD on the ankle. Former Navy GMG with a MOS for small arms. All the ballistic information is interesting and to some degree important. Perplexing, it still falls down to some elementary shooting basics - the definition of a word and training.

The word is "Self Defense". What is the perimeter line you want to call self-defensive? Not sure how "you" would define that. If your engagement perimeter is 12 feet, before you would respond to the aggressors "show of force" with the predication the aggressor is closing on you not running away from you then ballistics -penetration - terminal velocity and spread all become very important. Unfortunately not nearly as significant as shot placement. You can have a BFG and the greatest ammo but- if you cannot put the rounds in the cardiovascular triangle well....... Typically the self defense engagement perimeter will be three to four feet. This establishes a self-defensive engagement in response to the aggressors "eminent use of force on your person" not their "show of force". In my understanding I have learned what is Self Defense in one state or for that matter one county may very well be deemed as murder in another. Keep in mind I am talking about Personal Self Defense of a civilian i.e. yourself. A LEO will obviously not fall into this category. I know we can argue all the "what ifs" but for the most part Personal self defense is the goal of anyone carrying a concealed weapon.

In reality then if the engagement perimeter will be three to four feet then the basic shooting principle comes into play. What is my target and what is behind it? Remember we are talking about Self Defense here, not hunting or Law Enforcement or any kind of aggressive tactics as in assault or breach. All that we want to do is stop the aggressors "eminent use of force on our person". This becomes very important if the aggressor happens to be cranked or dusted. For that matter a really pissed off drunk is just as bad. What's most important, where is that round going after the exit. A 9mm at a range of 2 feet can penetrate and exit the average human body. If the aggressor happens to be cranked or dusted it may take several shots to put them down. Where are those rounds going? Again if you have a really soupped up round this become a very important issue. The most important thing to remember in any action that requires you to draw your weapon, you are responsible for everything that happens until you holster that weapon.

Regardless if the engagement perimeter is 12 feet or 4 feet when the aggressor is closing on you unless you have trained for that scenario it's only a breath or two at the most. Do you understand your weapon, your draw and your ability to get "sight on target"? Those actions are far more important then ballistics. Are you confidant with the weapon? Can you handle the weapon CQB? I don't know of to many personal defense situations where you would actually engage in a firefight scenario requiring you to reload and commence firing again. Could you do it if required? Its great to say "you bet" but the world turns into a completely different place if someone is firing back at you. Fear becomes a very interesting obstacle to overcome. Have you trained for any of this? Have you actually trained with someone with a blue mock up training pistol and had him or her close on you while you draw your blue trainer? Have you ever had someone take hold of you gun hand with a blue trainer to see if you can keep positive control of the blue trainer? All of these things determine site on target and shot placement. Real life training in my opinion is far more important then ballistic coefficients for self-defense. Not to diminish the fact it's very important to know what you have in your weapon to begin with? What it will do and how it will do it? But then that takes us back to understanding your weapon and I don't want to get rhetorical.

Please don't get me wrong learning and understanding are very important aspects of training as well. That is indeed what you are doing here and this is very interesting as well. I have to agree with the statement the disgruntled person made from only one perspective, in a self-defense situation there is not a perfect bullet/weapon relationship. In today's economy there are plenty of good reliable loads to choose from for any caliber. They will do the job in a self-defense posture if the rounds are put on target. So what it really comes down to is weapon/person. Holster whatever you can handle and shoot well.

The best self defense, training to avoid getting into a situation where you would have to draw your weapon. Then train every scenerio you can imagine to be prepaired if a situation is forced on you.

Great discussion to all involved.

[Sport45]

Welcome to The Firing Line PinkPuddin!

Excellent first post. If they gave awards in this category you'd be a finalist for sure.

[Army GI]

Well then give the gold medal for best first thread to me

[Para Bellum]

If you want to be serious about it, check out the serious ballistic performance comparsion tool at winchester's law enforcement website:

Go to http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...g/testing.aspx

then click on: Launch Testing Comparison Tool

an choose whatever caliber and bullet style you want to compare with one another. Note that you can scroll far to the right for different mediums (wallboard, glass etc)

As you can see there, the (for some inconvenient) truth is that there is no "better" tactical handgun caliber as 9x19mm. Some match the 9x19mm in some respect. But as a package of
- controllability,
- ballistic performance versatility,
- training price, and
- capacity
there is no match for the 9x19mm.

[ranger351w]

Not being adversarial but enough already. I as most of us carry what we feel is the best all around weapon. If you don't carry then most of this is moot. No ego just fact, I carry a keltec 9mm for my own reasons . I find practice ammo is cheaper,there is a good selection of sd ammo, I practice more, the 9mm weapons are easy to conceal,It has been around as has the 380 for ever or I think since the early 1900s. I believe the larger calibers are superior ballistic but harder to use and over penetration are large factors in ccw. Just whip out a 357mag and defend yourself. When the bullet goes through the bad guy and into a child on the next block you are going to go see bubba for a very long time. Thats if you can live with yourself.

Just my thoughts. not trying to change anyones mind. Have a good day

[Aqeous]

Welcome To The Forum. Your post represents one the most grounded and real world opinions that I have ever encountered; well put and well said. More than that it seems we are beginning to get something that looks distinctly like an actual consensus of some kind on this thread, and it looks something like your post . . . could we see and end to the caliber war in our lifetime? Probably not likely, but to those of us who actually take the time to research and acquire understanding we will feel safe and well protected by our own personal choice of the best of what modern day ballistics has to offer.

Training, mind state, bullet design and platform all coming together as one thing is the inevitable end to the caliber argument, whoever does this best is going to be the most well protected. And I think it's a pretty far stretch for anyone to argue with that.

[Aqeous]

Many factors come into play and even though we have seen very similar capacities in terms of penetration and real world lethality between, yes, most all of the service round calibers, to say simply nothing is "better" than 9X19 mm is just inviting another caliber war!

You have to specify ammunition type, reputation and and platform.

If given the choice between a 9X19mm in a 3" barrel loaded with FMJ and a .45 ACP with a 4" barrel loaded with JHP's that expand to 1" you bet I'm going to take that 45 ACP. Further more if you load up your gun with to cheap and unreliable ammo it really doesn't matter much what your carrying. If your going to convince people that for the most part there really is no real "better" caliber than the 9mm your going to have to go this route, every single time, or else all your ever going to get in return is "NO WAY!" It is only human nature to want to hit something scary with the biggest possible hammer that's possible, what people don't often appreciate is that it doesn't matter how big of a hammer that you have, if you want to kill the snake in any reasonable expanse of time you have to just hit the thing in the head.

[Aqeous]

I'm not sure if you took the time to read all of these posts and I am very certain you did not take the time to study all of the ballistics websites that have been posted on this thread in any kind of detail; somethings can simply be counter intuitive to our Human senses and instincts.

Not to be adversarial either but "I believe" isn't really much of a valid statement in terms of the kind of data that has been submitted here, and some of us enjoy the research and the illumination that delving into the real and actual facts gives us. That being said your kinda-sorta-right, just make sure when it comes to the protection of your life, family, and estate you remember to load you 9mm with a higher end ammunition with an good reputation and not just the cheap stuff you practice with. Also FMJ 9mm's are just as likely to go through someone or something as any other round so I'd stick with JHP's.

Here's the list of pretty darn good in 9mm, and it comes from a very reliable source.

In 9 mm:

Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP (53619)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

Just a little bit of well vised advise, I wish you also a nice day.

[Sgt127]

Just whip out a 357mag and defend yourself. When the bullet goes through the bad guy and into a child on the next block you are going to go see bubba for a very long time. Thats if you can live with yourself.


Silly, I know, but, could you give me an example of that actually occuring? I've tried to prove that argument in the past, and, well, I don't think it happens very often.

[Redneck with a 40]

I've got a question that is related to this topic. I'm looking at buying some double tap ammo in 40 S&W for my XD 4" and my Mil-Pro 3" barrel. I'm looking at the 165's for the XD and the 155's for the Mil-Pro, am I making a good choice here?

[PinkPuddin]

I think you will find this link interesting. This is an FBI report on handgun wounding effectiveness partially generated from the 9mm vs .45 caliber workshop at Quantico. I will get back to you on the collateral damage question.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

[Socrates]

Problem is the inaccuracy of the bullets that don't hit anything.

Very few pistol rounds have any velocity left after hitting their target. Not many exit...

[PinkPuddin]

Socrates

I agree with you in general. I am sure we are actually thinking the same thing. There are
people reading this I sure have not heard what you are saying. Please, if I may elaborate a
little on what you are stating. If I am wrong feel free to correct me.

Problem is the inaccuracy of the bullets that don't hit anything.

The problem is not the inaccuracy of the bullets per'se. The problem is the inaccuracy of
the bullets that you discharged from your weapon that did not contact the intended target.
I believe that is what you are saying. I agree with this statement, the "spray and pray"
method should never be employed. My opinion, that falls into the idea of reckless
discharge. The emphasis again is on training. One primary factory that has to be in place
is "situational awareness". Situational Awareness is a mode you should always be in.
Should you come into a situation that requires the response to force situational awareness
has to be maintained. Despite the engagement you must always stay aware of the
environment you are in. The term "fatal funnel" comes into play here. The idea of fatal
funnel, you focus so hard on your intended target you neglect to notice your environment.
Fatal funnel is something you have to train hard to overcome. Fatal funnel will get you or
someone else hurt maimed or killed.

Very few pistol rounds have any velocity left after hitting their target. Not many exit...

I agree with you here as well if the round hits center of mass and contacts bone or
something else. In the event the round was to hit one of the limbs the chance of a through
and through increases exponentially if the round does not contact bone or some other
resistant material. Having the best ballistic/hottest SD round is a factor but is not the
highest priority. Familiarity with your weapon and the ability to get sight on target has to
be the highest priority for any self-defense situation. Training cannot be emphasized
enough. Keeping in line with this thread I will also emphasis a basic understanding of
ballistics and the ballistic characteristics of the round you are using are very important.
Understand your weapon the round and what it will do and how it will (should) do it is all
a vital part of situational awareness.

[Socrates]

I've got a question that is related to this topic. I'm looking at buying some double tap ammo in 40 S&W for my XD 4" and my Mil-Pro 3" barrel. I'm looking at the 165's for the XD and the 155's for the Mil-Pro, am I making a good choice here?

This is Mike McNetts testing of his own ammo:

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

I'd email him, and ask him what he suggests.

Since I can't get a 250 plus grain bullet going 950 fps, in 40, I'd look for the load that goes 1350 fps, or more, and that leaves you with the 135 grain Noslers.

But, that's just me, using Lee Jurras' recommendations as a bible.

[Aqeous]

AMEN! PinkPuddin I am very curious to know what your profession is because you seem to really know what you're talking about.

[tharmer]

PP,
Thoughtful and reasonable. I read your link which was very interesting. For me, my Walther P99c is what I carry, what I took my defensive handgun course with, what I took my safety course with, and what I'll take my level II course with. It is the only gun I carry...not because I don't think other guns are just fine, but because I am really familiar with this one particular gun and don't have to think about its manual of arms when I'm using it. Hopefully that would carry over if I ever needed it for self defense.

[thunderkyss]

This is probably the best thread I've read on the subject, and I've read many. I do agree that at times, we need to re-address the issue, as technology changes everything.

30 years ago, the .357 mag and the .45 ACP were considered the "best" caliber by many. The argument, was that a 9mm wasn't powerful enough, and the .357 & .45 of the day were more effective.

Today's 9mm have better ballistics than the .357 & .45 of that day, and still there are proponents saying the 9mm isn't powerfull enough.

So I ask the question, what is powerful enough??

For me, a 124gr JHP that penetrates about 12" in calibrated gelatin, expanding to twice it's size(bigger than a .45 ACP) reliably, after passing through denim, heavy cloth & even wallboard is good enough.

Can a .45 JHP perform better?? Sure, but is it necessary??

I can shoot my 9 very well. my wife can shoot my 9 very well. Why have a bunch of guns in the house for us(my wife) to have to choose between when it's time to act.

"Baby grab the gun, and protect my girls."

And all this one shot stop non-sense.

I taught my wife how to reload for a reason.