Barrel setback on a Savage?

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Gents & ladies,

Friend of mine who is a, shall we say, 'interesting character' who likes rifles and hunting but knows just enough to be dangerous (literally), acquired a custom Savage action rifle with a 29" long, SS, heavy varmint profile barrel of unknown make stamped only "6.5 RUM" (and Hogue stock, muzzle brake, and Vortex Viper).

After I told him not to buy (but he did), and then that he would never find ammo online (which he couldn't), and so on, he ended up finding a gunsmith in S.C. who will make him some reloads - see below if you're interested in that sidebar. **

Long story short, he's gonna be paying around $500 or more for 80 rounds of ammo when it's all said and done.... so in the meantime, I told him to forget it; just have the barrel cut off or turned down 1/2" (whatever it's called), and rechambered to .26 Nosler so he can buy factory ammo online, or pretty much any .264 chambering except the absurdly overbore 6.5 RUM (and explained that it's probably already shot out anyway and there's plenty of barrel length left, etc.).

But a respected local gunsmith evidently told him that for some reason, you can't turn down / set back the barrel and re-thread and re-chamber on that particular rifle. I don't understand why this is, however? Is it because of Savage's unique barrel nut system which prevent ordinary setting back and re-chambering in the usual manner, or is the gunsmith full of it (or, much more likely, he misunderstood the gunsmith)?

Thanks.

**So to make ammo, get this: He couldn't find .300 RUM brass online either (out of stock), so he bought 80 rounds of NEW factory .300 RUM ammo, and had it shipped from Midway to him. Next, he's going to re-ship the loaded ammo to the gunsmith in S.C. That gunsmith is going to pull the bullets, dump the powder, swage/re-size to 6.5 RUM, then make the reloads for him, and ship back - all at enormous cost, as you might imagine. My friend is a bit hard-headed, to put it mildly. Mind you, for eastern woods whitetails.... He doesn't target shoot - just for hunting...lol. And he has a couple dozen other rifles, all for hunting, in many many chamberings, both common and obscure.

[precision_shooter]

Kinda sounds like the blind leading the blind there...

He could buy a decent barrel (drop in ready, chambered and threaded) in another caliber, that shares the same bolt face diameter, for what he has already spent on ammo and the anticipated cost of the gunsmith loads...

[Mobuck]

Boy, if I knew folks like that(and didn't have any scruples like that gunsmith) I'd be rolling in the dough.
There's no mechanical reason the barrel can't be set back as long as the barrel shank if bigger than the thread size. The Savage uses a barrel nut(unless the "custom" part included some other method) and a long threaded shank so that headspace is set and the nut tightened to lock the barrel in place.
Now, take this advice for what it cost since I'm not a real gunsmith. My barrel vise is bolted to a tractor drawbar (when I need it) and my go/no-go gauges are similarly primitive. Even I can turn out some good shooting re-barrel jobs using the Savage design.

[Jim Watson]

Case diameters are close, it might work.

Key is the barrel shank diameter. Savage has two, small for most calibers, large for most of the big magnums. If the barrel has to be set back enough to require turning and threading more shank, the barrel must be large enough to allow it. If there is a stepdown from the thread to the barrel taper, you couldn't.

Does the local guy say it can't be done because it can't or because he doesn't want to fool with it or doesn't have the shop capability?
Maybe the ammo wizard in SC would rather rebuild the rifle than tinker with reforming brass.

Or contact Larry Racine. He is an ace Savage gunsmith, a friend has had good work done by him. Looks like your guy would have to buy him a Nosler reamer, though.
http://www.lprgunsmith.com/index.htm

[Scorch]

Several things he could do to remedy the situation. Yes, he could have the barrel cut off and thread/chamber the barrel to (enter your or his choice here). 6.5 Nosler, .264 Win Mag, you name it. And you're not stuck with magnum cartridges, either, because it's a Savage and you can change the bolt head and magazine box. Or rebarrel it to whatever he wants!!

As far as why the barrel cannot be cut off and rethreaded, maybe the barrel was nitrided? That's about the only reason you would have trouble cutting it off and setting it back that I can think of right now.

[F. Guffey]

custom Savage action rifle with a 29" long, SS, heavy varmint profile barrel of unknown make stamped only "6.5 RUM"

Custom Savage, it is about this time owners of 'custom' rifles and chambers cut loose with the support group of tools that are required to feed the chamber. Like: My chamber is so tight I have to etc., etc.. It is assumed when the ammo arrives at his domical it will fit the chamber, but, there is a chance the necks will require turning and the cases will not have the proverbial .002" clearance because all the slack was used up in the custom chamber.

I have forming dies, I have friends that decided all they had to do was etc. when forming cases for wildcat chamber only to find out the case required to form were/are not available nor plentiful. Forming dies can get expensive but necessary. I have forming dies for chambers I do not have, I have them because the die is necessary for making a transition.

Then there is necking down, for the most part it is a thankless job tracking down all the information omitted from a post that is light on case and chamber drawings.

If the 300 RUM is a close fit the 7MM RUM would have been a better fit.

F. Guffey

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Thanks all.

Yeah, blind leading blind, true.

Yeah, that's the thing - the barrel is NOT stepped down at all - can't tell where chamber area ends and rest of barrel starts. Just a long continuous taper. Which is why I don't understand why you cannot cut it down and re-chamber.

Bolt face sizes of both the RUMs and .26 Nosler / .28 Nosler are roughly .535. (The RUMs have rebated rims).

OK, so we've established that there's nothing fundamentally prohibitive about the Savage nut design, from others - in all cases, the threaded barrel goes into "some other threading".

So the only issues are (a) Is there "enough thread left" with a simple cut, in which case my question becomes - How much thread is enough thread left? And also, supposing there isn't, and that you thus need to add more shank and threads - in that case, does one just leave the existing threads then add more by having the lathe bit just "dodge" the existing threads on its way to the back to make the threading extension or what? Can the lathe be programmed to do this? I know essentially nothing about machining.

And (b) Shank size was mentioned above. OK, sure, the shank is big enough, because if it works now, it will still work when you add more shank and threading, because, well, you'll make them the same size! But this is related to my question from above of "how do you add more threading without destroying the existing threading?" I suppose that even if you do destroy all existing threading and start over from scratch, you can still just make the shank and threading the right size from new turning. I mean, this barrel is long and super-heavy contour at the rear, so I don't see why you couldn't do either way (i.e. either leaving the old threading and add new shank and threading, if the lathe can be programmed as such, OR, lop the existing shank off and start fresh, moving everything forward, since there's no step down at all).

Ahhhh, nitriding - maybe that's the issue. That seems the only likely candidate, from what I can tell with limited knowledge. I will call the local gunsmith - he's well known even nationally.

Yeah, good call on changing bolt if want to.

P.S. Obviously, my point here is to give him advice on how to utilize THIS barrel, not buy another one, since this barrel is so nice with the muzzle brake and all ... that's why I thought .26 Nosler, though way too overbore for my personal tastes, would be perfect to solve his ammo problem. This guys is WAY too "non-meticulous" to actually reload anything successfully. And yes, this guy is absolutely a gunsmith's dream - always willing to blow obscene amounts of money on stupid crap he doesn't need. This guy has at least 10 feeders on 7 different hunting lands, and I think he told me that he has more than 20 stands, 50 trail cams, and 150 SD cards for his trail cams. His feeder corn bill per month is higher than all of my utilities, I'm sure. It's absurd - we all make fun of him, lol.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

UPDATE - wait, I'm sorry.

I think I wasted everyone's time and figured it out.

All of this talk is beside the point, since a smaller cartridge won't clean up the chamber of a RUM. RUMs are .551 wide at the body, and the Nosler and others are at most, .534 at the body.

Therefore, sure, you could set it back if the throat is gone, but you're still left with chambering in the same thing - 6.5 RUM, which defeats the purpose of trying to get a factory-ammo chambering. That's probably what this gunsmith was thinking.

And if you lop off an entire 3" or more to rechamber, you might start running into "not enough meat" on the barrel, stepped down or not, because there is a taper which starts at the very back.

Thanks again. Nevermind [/R. Rosannadanna]

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Custom Savage, it is about this time owners of 'custom' rifles and chambers cut loose with the support group of tools that are required to feed the chamber. Like: My chamber is so tight I have to etc., etc.. It is assumed when the ammo arrives at his domical it will fit the chamber, but, there is a chance the necks will require turning and the cases will not have the proverbial .002" clearance because all the slack was used up in the custom chamber.

Yeah... Reason # 235790 why he should have listened to my repeated adamant advice of "don't buy that rifle - you will be sorry" when he told me he was considering buying it.

there is a chance the necks will require turning

...which will be quite the trick with his expensive custom *loaded* ammo. Oh, this may become the mother of all I-told-you-do moments. But don't know how tight the chamber is. I told this guy like 50 times after he ignored my advice and bought the rifle, that the FIRST thing you need do, before doing anything else, is cast the chamber (so that he could order custom dies and start the clock running on the long wait to receive same).

I even told him I would cast the chamber and throat for him for $50 - but he never listens to me - that's the problem. I'm surprised this smith in S.C. isn't requiring that he send the rifle. Maybe he is neck turning as part of the deal. Either that or the smith is just happy to take his money, regardless of outcome.

[F. Guffey]

light on case and chamber drawings.

The 30/06 chamber reamer will not clean up a 308 W chamber. The 280 Remington chamber reamer will not clean up the chamber of a 7mm57. Then there was the last do-around. At the time it seemed to be a good ideal, when finished the wildcat had two different neck diameters. When building bench rest type rifles a chamber with two different neck diameters is a distraction, there is a chance accuracy will not be a factor. Those involved had to start over and the fix was time consuming.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

I even told him I would cast the chamber for him for $50

Chamber cast, need to get with Skizzums.

F. Guffey

[Jim Watson]

All of this talk is beside the point, since a smaller cartridge won't clean up the chamber of a RUM. RUMs are .551 wide at the body, and the Nosler and others are at most, .534 at the body.

?

The drawing I found shows the 26 Nosler with a .550" body diameter. The rim is rebated to .534" for common bolt faces.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/hunti...-6-5mm-magnum/

[F. Guffey]

All of this talk is beside the point, since a smaller cartridge won't clean up the chamber of a RUM.

Beside the Point? I said all the Googling is a thankless job.

F. Guffey

[Unlicensed Dremel]

The drawing I found shows the 26 Nosler with a .550" body diameter. The rim is rebated to .534" for common bolt faces.

Oh really - did I get that backward? Hmmmm, same size body, within a thousandth. I looked at the schematic of the Nosler wrong - are they both based on the .404 Jeffrey? I thought the RUM was rebated but the Nosler wasn't. OK, back to the drawing board - ha ha. Well this gunsmith locally here is NOT wrong; I can guarantee you that. I didn't want to bug him with a phone call if possible, but I may have to when - I mean if - his $500 rounds don't chamber.

[F. Guffey]

All of this talk is beside the point,

Unless it is decided a forming die should be considered. I have forming dies that cost $100.00 +/- a little each, I do not have a forming that that has not paid for itself.

F. Guffey

[thump_rrr]

For $500 he can purchase a new bolt head and barrel rather than 80 rounds of ammunition.
I would make a modified case to check how far the lands are first before going any further.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Hey guys, I calculated his total cost for my friend's ammo acquisition.

These 80 rounds will cost him more than $7.50 each to shoot. hahahahahaha.

[tobnpr]

I sure hope it shoots for him.
Buying a shot-out barrel that needs to be set-back, of unknown history and accuracy. Risky. I'd at least have had it borescoped before sinking money into it given he doesn't know how well it shot before the throat got burned out- or even the maker.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

I agree 100% - this guy has enough brainpower to light up an entire city. A tiny ant city, mind you... More money than sense, lol.

I still can't figure out why he didn't at the very least just have Midway send his loaded ammo directly to the smith / reloader in S.C.

[Will-j]

U. D. Give your friend a break...He knows what he wants....He's having it done to his satisfaction....Not a penny is coming out of your pocket; What's the problem?

WILL

[F. Guffey]

Unlicensed Dremel, thank you for your effort, I like the stories with happy endings then there is the price of an education. I hope your friend keeps you updated.

F. Guffey

[Unclenick]

U.D.,

I hope your friend doesn't go into hiding to avoid hearing "I told you so".

Not having seen the custom barrel or its exact contour, I wonder if the gunsmith simply found too little thread length and remaining metal ahead of the taper to set it back enough for what you suggested? It would be unusual if there wasn't enough thread to set it back a little bit to clean up the 6.5 RUM throat, but given how far overbore that cartridge is, perhaps it's been done enough times already that no room is left.