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Old January 11, 2017, 12:58 AM   #26
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Lawyer talk is one thing. Saying it's not recommended to carry a round chambered is on another level. I can't think of a manual that I have with that warning, but I can check I suppose
For all the decades I've been around Hunter Safety and many firearms manuals have always advised to only chamber a round when you are about to shoot.

Few people DO it, particularly with a defensive pistol, but it is still always advised...
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Old January 11, 2017, 08:26 AM   #27
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The hammer on the LCP is fully concealed and it is NOT fully cocked when a round is chambered.
Ruger (last I looked) says the LCP II is a "single action pistol".
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Old January 11, 2017, 08:46 AM   #28
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For all the decades I've been around Hunter Safety and many firearms manuals have always advised to only chamber a round when you are about to shoot.
Right but I think we can agree there's a difference between hunting and self defense. If I miss a shot on a deer or similar because I had to chamber a round that's a bad day, but not life ending (excluding the starvation argument). In a self defense situation you may well not have the time to chamber a round and your bad day could end up with you dead.

That said you may be right this is more of a common warning than I'm giving credit for.
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Old January 11, 2017, 08:50 AM   #29
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It seems if any pistol would need a firing pin block, it would be one that is designed for pocket carry. Is there some engineering reason why that isn't practical on a small pistol? Having a pistol slip out of a pocket isn't unheard of - and a firing pin block offers more security that way than a firing pin spring.
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Old January 11, 2017, 12:13 PM   #30
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Right but I think we can agree there's a difference between hunting and self defense.
oh absolutely, BUT,...safety advice is always safety advice, whether it actually applies/is PRACTICAL in your specific situation, or not. No matter what you do, or don't do, they can go back and say "we told you not to do that" and so not be to blame for YOUR (or my) actions.

Ruger has got to be more than a bit lawsuit conscious. The entire "new model" Blackhawk (transfer bar) action is the result of a lawsuit.

Every gun has a risk of firing, if dropped, if there is a round in the chamber. Every gun. Always been that way, always will be.

All the various mechanical systems, used to prevent this reduce that risk, sometimes almost completely, BUT they cannot reduce it to absolute zero, as long as there is a round in the chamber.

Something Hunter Safety and others teach, NEVER TRUST A MECHANICAL SAFETY. Meaning, of course, that anything mechanical can, and sometimes WILL FAIL. The odds may be incredibly small but they DO exist, and people win the lottery, and get hit by lightning.

I know of a couple of guns that fired when the safety was put ON!!! I've had some that fired when the safety was taken OFF. (and got them repaired)

I don't know the gun in question from personal experience, and I won't even begin to second guess Ruger about why they built what they built. All I can say with surety is, if it bothers you, get something else.

Not a very satisfying answer, I admit, but a real world one. When you ask a gun company about something they are ALWAYS going to reply with the answer that benefits them the most.
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Old January 11, 2017, 02:18 PM   #31
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For all the decades I've been around Hunter Safety and many firearms manuals have always advised to only chamber a round when you are about to shoot.
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Right but I think we can agree there's a difference between hunting and self defense.
On occasion, I've read where some hunters never hunt game with a loaded chamber and will admonish those that do. Which always makes me wonder if they've ever hunted grouse or quail because, if you hunt these evil birds with an empty chamber, best that you plan on hitting the local Krogers on the way back to camp to get some hotdogs for supper.

Likewise, carrying a gun intended for self-defense with an empty chamber would probably entail suffering a worse consequence than going hungry that evening if you ever needed to use it.
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Old January 11, 2017, 03:06 PM   #32
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The hunters that I know of that hunt with an empty chamber tend to be those in the mountain west. Lots of rough-country climbing and plenty of time to get set with a rest and chamber a round after you spot and stalk your target.
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Old January 11, 2017, 03:25 PM   #33
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Which always makes me wonder if they've ever hunted grouse or quail because, if you hunt these evil birds with an empty chamber, best that you plan on hitting the local Krogers on the way back to camp to get some hotdogs for supper.
Depends on the gun type - with a break open, the chambers can be loaded and the action broken open. That style doesn't work well with a SD pocket gun however.
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Old January 11, 2017, 04:31 PM   #34
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Which always makes me wonder if they've ever hunted grouse or quail because, if you hunt these evil birds with an empty chamber, best that you plan on hitting the local Krogers on the way back to camp to get some hotdogs for supper.
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Depends on the gun type - with a break open, the chambers can be loaded and the action broken open.
Depends on nothing, really. I defy anyone to load any type of shotgun being carried with an empty chamber(s); bring it to the shoulder; find your target and hit a flushing grouse in the typical habitat/coverts you find them at. Like I said, if you're planning on having grouse to eat for supper and you're hunting them with a gun having no shells in the chamber but don't want to go hungry at the end of the day, break out the wieners.
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Old January 11, 2017, 04:34 PM   #35
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I easily carry my SxS with rounds in the chambers and the gun broken open so i can easily carry it. Just a manner of closing the action as I start to bring it to my shoulder - not a big deal; but this is about a Ruger LCPII
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Old January 11, 2017, 05:25 PM   #36
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I easily carry my SxS with rounds in the chambers and the gun broken open so i can easily carry it.
We were talking about guns being carried with empty chambers. But I can only imagine the debris that would find its way into the action of my double if I carried it broken, even with shells in it.. But maybe we hunt in different kinds of terrain. I hunt the cedar swamps and alder thickets where "pats" are found in, in the typical coverts of upper Michigan.
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Old January 11, 2017, 05:26 PM   #37
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not a big deal; but this is about a Ruger LCPII
I was responding to 44 AMP's post.
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Old January 11, 2017, 05:49 PM   #38
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Ruger LCP

My Taurus TCP 738 was the same way.
In fact I just traded it in for a Ruger LCP. Which is even smaller than the Taurus.
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Old January 11, 2017, 07:54 PM   #39
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It seems if any pistol would need a firing pin block, it would be one that is designed for pocket carry. Is there some engineering reason why that isn't practical on a small pistol? Having a pistol slip out of a pocket isn't unheard of - and a firing pin block offers more security that way than a firing pin spring.
I agree with your sentiment. I have no qualms with shooting or carrying a 70 series 1911 with no firing pin block, but barring that any other gun I own I would prefer to have one. A 1911 OWB is much different than the pocket-sized LCP II.

As to mechanical limitations, a Sig P290 isn't much bigger than an LCP, is chambered in 9mm, and has an active firing pin block. The Kahr PM/CM series also has an effective firing pin block. Again, not much bigger than a LCP.
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Old January 11, 2017, 09:03 PM   #40
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Deaf Smith, the LCP II has a new design of trigger and hammer. It is not the same as the LCP.

In the LCP II the hammer seems to be all the way back when loaded. I looked and don't remember seeing any movement of the hammer when I pulled the trigger, until it dropped. No moving back to full-cocked position like I had with my LCP Custom.

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Old January 12, 2017, 04:00 PM   #41
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The instruction books of some guns say to keep the ammo and the gun in separate locations, so I am a lot more interested in the mechanics than printed warnings. Depending on the length and pull weight of the trigger, carrying the LCPII chamber empty might actually be practical advice, though. The absence of a firing pin block baffles me as much as the rest of you.
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Old January 12, 2017, 04:04 PM   #42
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I believe the LCP II hammer does move back some upon trigger pull. I examined one in a shop but have not seen the interior of one yet.

If you consider that striker fired pistols all could fire if the slide broke away from the frame, I would not own one that doesn't have a firing pin block. I believe the Ruger American is an example of one, which was a surprise to me.

The LCP II is hammer fired by contrast, and doesn't need a FP block for that specific reason. But I'd prefer it had one anyway (because a fully energized hammer can set off a primer, obviously), unless someone could show me that there's no way the sear could fail and allow the hammer to fall.

The inertia-type firing pin designs could allow firing if dropped on the muzzle (without a FP block), but I understand the distances involved make this very unlikely. I believe the gen 1 original LCP was upgraded with a stronger FP return spring and a titanium firing pin after a recall early on. I'd not be surprised if the LCP II shares this feature.
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Old January 12, 2017, 04:11 PM   #43
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"...this is pretty ridiculous..." You're trying to apply logic where none exists. Ruger has been run by litigation frightened MBA's for eons. Their customer service types are trained to give CYA advice.
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Old January 12, 2017, 06:23 PM   #44
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It seems that the main question is, since this thing is generally carried in the pocket with a round in the chamber and fully cocked, what, besides the hammer-sear engagement keeps it from possibly discharging and injuring someone nearby, or emasculating you, or blowing a hole in the femoral artery, in the event the hammer-sear engagement fails?

I repeat, why is there no firing pin block or hammer block? If the hammer falls from full cock, for any reason, metal fatigue, wear, shoddy assembly, out of tolerance parts … anything, things are going to go badly for somebody.

Nothing is foolproof but the odds favor the addition of something to stop a firing pin-primer contact unless the trigger is pulled.
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Old January 12, 2017, 06:46 PM   #45
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As to mechanical limitations, a Sig P290 isn't much bigger than an LCP, is chambered in 9mm, and has an active firing pin block. The Kahr PM/CM series also has an effective firing pin block. Again, not much bigger than a LCP.
But both are a lot heavier, which could make a big difference depending on the clothing being worn.
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Old January 12, 2017, 07:53 PM   #46
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I have an LCP (with the "improved trigger"), a Rohrbaugh and a Seecamp. Each of these pocket guns is hammer fired and is double action. None have a trigger block. The hammer is shielded from impact, in some respect, as it sits flush with the slide and is cocked only by trigger pull. The firing pin is separated from the round in the chamber by the tension of a rather strong firing pin spring. When the LCPll and its specs were released, it seemed to me that one would be carrying a single action pocket pistol with a round chambered and the hammer cocked: the only so called "safety" being the Glock type trigger insert. I trust the three guns mentioned above due to the DA operating system and the firing pin spring weight. I would never pocket carry a cocked and unlocked single action firearm.
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Old January 12, 2017, 08:12 PM   #47
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I think Ruger took a step backward with this one.
But, first-time buyers will be impressed with the "improved trigger pull," not understanding the difference between D/A & S/A- or the reasons of each.
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Old January 12, 2017, 09:17 PM   #48
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If the hammer falls from full cock, for any reason, metal fatigue, wear, shoddy assembly, out of tolerance parts … anything, things are going to go badly for somebody.
This is my exact thought. I'm a little paranoid (what I call "prudent"), which is the very reason I carry in the first place. Any of the things that you've listed is enough to put a .380 through my kneecap - or worse - with no negligence on my part. Its hard to say whether this gun is more dangerous with an empty chamber or a loaded chamber.

I would not purchase this gun if I had it to do over.
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Old January 12, 2017, 09:19 PM   #49
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The hammer on the LCP is fully concealed and it is NOT fully cocked when a round is chambered.
Ruger customer service says it is fully cocked when you rack the slide. See their quote in post #1.
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Old January 12, 2017, 09:58 PM   #50
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The hammer on the LCP is fully concealed and it is NOT fully cocked when a round is chambered.

Ruger customer service says it is fully cocked when you rack the slide. See their quote in post #1.
I think we may be mixing up the difference in the LCP and the LCP II.
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